No Longer a Guinness Virgin...

Not being privy to your little click is why I asked. Actually, haven't seen anything worth clenching over, just baffled by some of Lew's bizarre statements.

nb

If by "your little click" you mean a couple people who've had the pleasure of meeting over beer having some fun with each other (no, not *that*), then I understand.

I'd spell it properly, though.

Well, that's 4 outta what? ...a thousand microbreweries to spring up in the last 15-20 years? Even you admit to homebrewing. Yet, there is a constant underlying enmity in you references to them. Why?

nb

...an inside joke.

nb

Dude. They're four of the major, very early ancestors. That was my point. You were talking about origins. So did I.

I'm reformed.

Like I said, you hit a hot button both with the "You can brew better beer at home than you can buy!" and the "You can brew it cheaper!" Some of it's a simple problem with any kind of fanatic: sports fans piss me off too. I may look like a fanatic about beer, but I'm not. It's my job, and I love it, but I have a life. I have a family I love, I travel, I cook, I read history and science fiction, I sing. That's about all you'll get out of me on it.

Lew, Having followed this thread, I'll weigh in on your side (not that anyone cares). Sure it's a fun hobby for some, but...

When friends/coworkers find out I'm a fan of good beer, I inevitably get a question on whether I home-brew (almost rhetorical--they seem to expect that I do). My answer is always "Nah. There are thousands of people who labor day and night just to make really, really good beer for me to buy--how could I compete with that?"

I've got other things to do with my time (like lurking on alt.beer--yeah there's a good use of my free time).

Lew Brys> I'm thinking that, and all that comes to mind is a Yugo full of Ewok > underwear.

>

If you ask me, that's every bit - if not more - ridiculous as high fines, etc.

I guess I don't see the problem with that. Your right to drink and operate heavy machinery ends just as soon as it puts my life at risk. I personally feel that most penalties for drunk driving should be *increased* - but only once someone is hitting multiple offenses, and at an elevated BAC (above .13 or .14, where the vast majority of injury and fatal accidents involving drinking occur).

That's a long leap from where things are now. And I'm someone who is among the first to whine about the neoprohibitionist tone in the country. But exaggerating the case makes one look like a loon and get tuned out by people who might otherwise be symapthetic to the argument. Cassandras rarely get listened to.

Objectively, your probability for an accident increases with increasing levels of alcohol. Fact.

Secondly, if all that might happen was you wrapping yourself around a tree, I'd be fine with that. The fact that you might wrap yourself around me or my car makes me a little touchy.

-Steve

I guess I was a bit bored at work today so I thought a little about why I still homebrew on occassion and then it dawned on me. I doubt if I brew beer as good as a commercial brewery, though I have made some kick ass hefeweizens in my time and some of my alts turned out to be far superior to Diebels or Hannen or whatever mass produced Alts which make it over here, but I think the main reason to homebrew is that you can create a product that is suited to your individual taste. It may not suit others, but who cares unless you are into pointless competitions? Then again it is a lot of work and the temptation to "settle" on all the excellent commercial offerings is strong indeed. So strong that i have not brewed in over a year.

--Dan E

Why? Unless the person has hit someone or crashed into someones property, what's is the harm? That is the crux of the problem. What is the danger? I have seen unbelievable non-drinking driving practices, any of which are just as potentially dangerous as drunk driving. Have they been pumped up to the point of being a major felony with major legal and finacial impact on the guilty party. Well, not yet, but....

Look at cell phones. They are at that stage DUI's were at 20 years ago. Do cell phones really totally incapcitate a driver from controlling a car? If so, how about law enforcement officers (LEO) talking on a 2-way radios while in pursuit or just cruising. Don't give that crap about training. The human brain CAN talk and chew gum or it can't. You can't tell me cops are smart enough to do it, but ordinary civlians are not.

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Look, I drank and drove (not to excess) for 30 years. Never had an accident, never been arrested ...period! If a person is drunk and hits a another car or a person or runs afoul of the law, fine. Bust his ass. Just like if a person is sober and hits a car or person. Here's a question. What is the greater offense? A person who is completely sober and is at fault for causing an accident? ...or a person who is inebriated and causes an accident? According to my state's laws (CA), a person under the influence has his faculties impaired after one drink. That means a person who is sober is not impaired. Who is more guilty?

Your probability of having and accident after driving for 15 hours without sleep increase, too. As far as i know, it's not a multi-thousand dollar offense as of yet ...although i notice after revoking many 8hr behind-the-wheel limits back in the 70's, they have recently been reinstated.

The fact of the matter is, we are moving towards a intention=crime legal system. I have no problem with convicting on the basis of crime+intention=guilty, but the former is just too Orwellian.

Valid point. Even more so when you look at the fact that homebrewing is a hobby, and therefore who cares about the cost of one's time. It's not like I take a look at all the money I've invested in scuba gear and classes and the like and view it as a loss because I don't get paid for it. It's a hobby I enjoy, and the investment is worth it. Homebrewing was like that for me once.

But, the cost of one's time does play into it if one has "cheaper" beer as a reason to homebrew. It's not, even if you don't place much monetary value on your time. There are plenty of other valid reasons to homebrew, but I don't think that's really one. And most of the dedicated and good homebrewers I've known don't have that on their list of reasons they brew.

It was one more thing that had to be done that wasn't involved in the actual brewing or drinking, the only parts I really enjoyed. Plus, all the sanitation and moving around of crap and all that. Yes, not anywhere near as huge a pain as bottling, but when you're as lazy as I am on the weekends, every little bit makes a difference.

_Steve

Bingo. As well as the satisfaction of making it yourself.

One of my things the past couple years has been breadmaking. I know I can't make bread as good as what comes from a quality bakery. I don't have the oven for it, at the very least. But I made it myself. I've adapted my recipes and techniques to produce it the way I like. But most importantly, it's mine. For someone who works with his head all the time, being able to have my hands in something to create a physical, tangible product is very cool. That's why brewing appealed to me. And why I'll pick it up again some day when I have the space and facilities to do it the way I want to (read: no bottles).

-Steve

If a doctor doesn't wash his hands or sterilize his instruments before operating on me, and I don't get infected, what's the harm?

Laws and safety precautions are totally useless if they handle things only after the fact. There's a prophylactic purpose to certain rules and regs. Reduce the incidence of high-risk behavior, and you reduce the risk and consequences.

The danger is that the drunk driver has a greater probability of harming not only himself, but others. Objective fact. It's the same reason that commercial drivers are limited in how many hours they can drive in a day or why pilots are limited in how much they can be on the job in a given timeframe. Under your logic, we wouldn't penalize the driver or pilot until after he's caused an accident or crashed the plane. Which is daft.

I know of nowhere in the States where DWI is a felony-level offense on first occurance or without other crimes being committed in conjunction. It's a misdemeanor offense, unless you cause injury or death.

And some practices are having increased penalties attached to them. Cell phone use is one.

They don't help.

Then you're lucky. That doesn't mean everyone on the road is going to have the same luck.

Waiting until that point doesn't do the person who got hit and maybe injured or even killed much good, does it?

Not enough information to say. If the sober person deliberately runs a red light, then there's culpabilty. The fact is, if you engage in behavior that puts others at risk, you're in the wrong. Whether that's driving on the wrong side of the road or driving drunk.

One of the biggest issues here is burden of proof. It's easy to prove lack of sleep among commercial drivers because they're required to keep log books (which can be falsified, but there are penalties for that, too). There is objective proof of driving above a certain BAC level. It's much tougher to prove that someone was putting on makeup while driving and that led to an accident.

I agree that other behaviors should be targeted as well, but they're more difficult to either catch or make stand up in court. C'est la vie.

Arguing against enforcing drunk-driving laws unless someone has caused an accident just makes no sense at all to me, and isn't going to wash with most people, especially the people in position to try to make sane laws. It just looks loony.

-Steve

Sez who? You set your own limits.

How does it go? The best song has yet to be sung, the best book has yet to be written, yada yada yada...

If everyone had your attitude we'd be eating 5000yr old bread and drinking

5000yr old beer. Have some faith in yourself. :)

nb

The tough thing about siphoning around the home, in the garage, *after* one's been a homebrewer is to remember NOT to taste the contents. ("Hmmm... this gas oil mixture seems to be closer to 30:1 than the recommended 50:1...")

I must admit...I've been making mustard. It's mine, I can give it to people, and I can make it the way I want...well, I'm getting better at making it the way I want. Tends to last longer than beer, though!

As a former scuba diver, I can relate. But diving had a heckuva lot more equipment overhead, time involved, and bang for the buck. At least for Midwestern lake diving, where good (or: so-called "good") visibility was 12 feet.

Oh, I pretty much agree. With a fulltime job, kids, other activities, etc., I brew from 50-66% ofthe time I want to. But if the anonymous notbob is retired, time is something he has to burn.

Bingo! Brewing, cooking[*], limited-powertool woodworking... all things I think I enjoy doing because it's completely unlike what I do for a living.

[*] And given the "eh" nature of the vast majority of restaurants where I live now, being a bit more than adequate in the kitchen pays off. Same would be true, of course, for people without good bakeries, beer selection, etc.

I've made several batches of cheese. Unfortunately, batches

2 and three are still aging, so I have no idea if I'm doing OK. When I get a couple more batches under my belt (figurately, and maybe literally), I'm trying a cheese made with beer.