If you have many pubs within a minute or two's walk then does this presuppose that you live in a town or city? I can well imagine that pubs in say Leeds city centre might well have very little trade on a Sunday, but Sunday lunchtimes are pretty important to many pubs these days. Again, in an area with many pubs it's often the case that some pubs aim for the 'youth' drinkers, others for families etc. and I can well imagine that a circuit pub aiming at club 18/30 would see little point in opening on a Sunday, leaving the field clear for those pubs which see Sunday lunches as essential. Still, to have many pubs within a 2 minute walk would seem to be pretty unusual these days, you're lucky! My local landlord, when he arrived in the village, decided to close lunchtimes. Before many months had elapsed his finances dictated otherwise, but it was not through any other choice than financial.
Many people liking a thing does not imbue it with quality. Many people watch soaps, it doesn't make them great, popularity may equate with mediocrity.
More's the pity. Advertising has much to answer for.
Given the choice, most do. Having given people the choice between a decent real ale and the mass produced tetleys it was my experience that within 6 months virtually everyone had gone over to the more expensive and better choice. Unfortunately you will not stop people demanding a well advertised beer, john smith's smooth I found to be a particularly good example of how well advertising can work:-(
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:08:16 +0100, Chris Rockcliffe wrote (in message ):
Thanks for that potted history of Caffreys.
No, it is s**te. It may be a great exercise in branding but as beer goes it's foul s**te, the fact that many people like it is not evidence to the contrary. I think even Paul Shirley and me would agree on that one!
Nope not a quote from me I'm afraid.
============================================================= Posted with Hogwasher. Mac first, Mac only:
So, you are saying they chose to stay open longer? Funny that.
So it means that more of them can stay in business, then? So it IS good news after all. Or would you prefer them to go bust?
Or vice versa?
Can you just explain something to me which I seem to have missed? If all this flexible opening is so bad, how is it working in Scotland, and in most other countries in the world?
Another A.Perrow bit of "evidence"? Please point us to independent evidence of your assertion.
Irrelevant.
At last he's got it!
Correct.
The above is exactly why you are so wrong. The clamour for flexible hours comes from many quarters including licensees who want to open their pub when THEY want to.
The rate of pubs closures is a fact. However you have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that allowing pubs to choose hours that are appropriate to each pub will actually result in more pub closures.
My figure of 5 was for Scotland alone. But again the above is irrelevant as you are unable to distinguish between the words flexible and exend.
The same as those employed by a pub that decides to open of a lunchtime when it traditionally closed
Not all all. I repect the right of the licensee to choose the hours that they wish to open.
Probably not many but asked now? Bu if you asked a licensee of one of those pubs whould they like all pubs to be forced to shut on a Sunday, the answer of course would be a resounding NO.
Again, if you were to ask licensees would they like to be forced to close at
10.30, or even 9.30 or even 8.30 the answer of course would be no.
No you've got it all wrong. The only customers you see are the locals. Getting rid of the last orders scrum at closing time has done a lot to encourage other users who wouldn't have visited the pub that opened from
6.30 to 10.30.
Exactly my point, you are talking about a place that traditionally has had NO real ale for donkeys years. Have a chat with Angus at Skye Brewery who will put you straight. The demand for cask ales on the Western Isles is meteoric. Then go and have a drink from the selection at the Stein at Waternish and those clouds will lift.
True but look at where you are starting from!
I have never said it was. As well as confusing "flexible" with "extended" you are now confusing "awash with good real ale" with "the cask ale scene is very much on the up".
There can be many reasons as to why a licensee choses to open after hours. Many of which are a cul-de-sac in terms of the debate on flexbile licensing hours.
You have chosen to be against flexible hours. How can that make you anything other than inflexible?
No I do mean flexible hours. Unlike you, I respect the right of a licensee to open the hours they want to. Giving pubs the right to open when they want will reduce the rate of pub closures. You model of inflexibility has not worked in the past and will not work in the future.
I am not the once suggesting inflexible hours.
But that will not be the case for every pub. Let the licensee decide the hours when the pub should open.
Looking at this particular scenario, for some pubs and customers that may be exactly what the licensee wants. The licensee of the pub in Scotland I referred to earlier said that instead of three bar staff working flat out for a short session, the bar can operate with one member of staff working quite comfortably.
Again you are stating opinion as fact.
I actually use a number of different pubs and I would expect the licensees of each to make their own decisionas to when they open and close.
Please explain the opening hours you believe a pub should be restricted to open?
Wrong. Pubs will find it easier to extend there opening hours however they doesn't mean they will chose to do so. As others have pointed out some very succesful pubs choose to open non-maximum hours already. That will continue.
I don't dispute that (though the licensee of a pub I spoke to said that he found that he could "spread the staffing load" as the closing time crush has disappeared) but I am prepared to given the licensee the choice.
Wrong, there may well be a lot more beer drunk. For example pub visitors who wouldn't have normally visited a pub during the previous opening hours.
Flexible means different but only if the publican wishes. As no member of trade wants longer hours then it will not happen.
Why are you assuming that opening different hours will not attract different customers? Why are you assuming that if nothing is done the customers' drinking habits will stay the same?
Or perhaps they will choose not to open during the unprofitable hours.
No-one is forcing them to open and in many urban areas they still would not be allowed to open until 1pm.
And with the last 12 months two new 'back-street' pubs have opened in my locality. Over the last 10 years many more pubs have opened in the town where I live than have closed.
I finds myself incapable of answering such well thought out responses, so bow out of this part of the discussion. Unless you'd merely like a similar response? Such as "You're wrong" Or "You're totally wrong."
Any points you have made I consider worth the answering I shall do.
/LARGE SNIP/
Care to tell me some of these many licensees who are clamouring to work longer hours for no increase in income? For CAMRA have stated that no increase in consumption will arise.
Because there is no evidence to that effect (allowing for the supposition that for pubs to choose hours you meant landlords) but as has been written repeatedly that is not what will happen. Landlords will be forced to increase their hours, either by the breweries or by the loss of trade which will ensue if they don't.
Why should that be? Do you, in your job, clamour to be allowed to work a 7 day week for no increase in income? (The no increase in spending is agreed by CAMRA)
The answer of course would be a resounding yes, if *all* pubs were made to close at an earlier hour.
I really must visit the wrong pubs, despite there being a hell of a lot of them. Closing time is almost invariably the busiest time in the late evening.
/LARGE SNIP/ Because this is the nub of the whole argument.
You are being foolish indeed if you think that pubcos will respect the rights of their tenants when choosing the hours worked. The truly free houses will have no choice but to follow those hours.
Here we can leave the argument. The extension of hours *will* happen, and we will then see what happens.
Perhaps others who are in the trade or at least have real experience might like to cast their vote? As an ex licencee I know exactly what mine would be/have been:-)
What I find more interesting is the number of idiots who claim it doesn't work. Especially the ones that simultaneously insist POS materials (like branded glasses) do work! Advertising is obviously a quantum system, simultaneously effective and ineffective ;)
That's good and lucky for you Alan, but it isn't the 'norm. Perhaps your town is increasing in inhabitants? Most towns/areas have seen a steady decrease in the number of pubs over the years, the Yorkshire Dales is one area which has suffered especially badly.
I find myself unable to answer someone who thinks that flexible = extended.
None but that is not what I said.
By failing to accept that flexible hours can attract new drinkers you have also misunderstood Mike Benner's quote.*
As there is no evidence then like you I will await the results with interest.
Re the first point, what proportion of English and Welsh pubs have their opening hours set by pubcos or breweries? The second point is flawed. It fails to explain why there are many very succesful pubs out there that have restricted opening hours. If you argument held water, such places would not exist.
Because they understand that to be a succesful business you need to open when you are going to attract your customers. That may well mean opening later in the afternoon if that is not a popular time to go to the pub in your area
No but I am happy to work longer hours for more pay due to me getting new customers or to change my working hours to suit my customers.
No it isn't. See * for details
So your idea of heaven is a world where pubs all close at 9.30 and you suggest your fellow licensees ould agree with you? Besides why are you forcing pubs to close at 9.30. Doesn't a licensee have the right to close at 8.30? After all according to your model, if increasing hours results in no extra profit then it decreasing hours will result in no decrease in profit.
I agree that a lot of pubs will not attract new customers by changing their opening hours. Reasons are of course many but include, location, atmosphere, attitude of licensee, bad food, bad beer etc etc
Read this and be informed:
formatting link
No because it is vital to the debate, by arguing against flexibility you are by definition arguing for an inflexible system. Inflexible businesses go bust QED.
And as the above web link demonstrates, I along with a large proportion of licensees I have spoken to look forward to it.
By the way, you still haven't indicated what licensing hours should be in this country.
I agree, I think that is what will happen to many more pubs now. The likes of JDW and others are run as retail businesses on modern retail lines very efficiently, not as trad' pubs.
On the plus side - against pure price wars - we many of us do get bored with the same pub and want variety. That at least will keep us going into and keeping some less competitive pubs in business.
That is why many of the new retail drink businesses are aiming at the young
- the 18-25 year olds. Get them to change their drinking habits and venues and the old places will shut down as time goes on.
The modern world of marketing is aggressive but also has a longer-term strategy and sees business building by stealth. Give them big screen football; their pool tables; gaming machines; give them their piped music and juke boxes.
There should be another movement now - call it CAMSOP - The Campaign to Save Our Pubs. With people made aware that if they don't think about where they go now to spend their beer money, they will lose many of the old pubs forever. IMO, folks seem to be divided between those who don't give a shit and those who are worried about a diminished lack of choice in the future.
The old quality butchers greengrocers and bakers shops went by the wayside when supermarkets took over. 5 private companies now control three quarters of all our food distribution. The same thing with pubs soon.
Some of the conglomerates newly acquired real estate earns more in added value per day than their pub revenue. They can afford to ride the interim with confidence and I'm sure that 'longer' hours is seen as by the new pub conglomerates as a way of dissing some more of the 'weaker' competition.
They can only grow by taking business away from others. With huge profit reserves to back them up, they'll be dancing long after the little guys have fallen over.
The shareholders too will expect to see maximum effort and maximum profit. If that means 14 hour days or even 24 hour opening for food and drink, that's what will happen. Capitalism only knows one way - compete full on - and trash the competition.
L.A.s will be able to control the situation to some degree by gathering complaints against premises which cause a nuisance. There will be a huge growth in both real and bogus nuisance complaints anyway in urban areas. It is another tool in the armoury of controlling licensees.
I think there may be an increase in drink driving offences too. Bad news certainly and reversing the trend of recent years.
I can't believe that everything affected by the Licensing Bill hasn't been discussed and planned as a deliberate strategy by both the major players and the Govt in talks between them that started 4-5 years ago.
IMO the Gov't see big company retail jobs and longer pub hours as a way of providing more part-time and full-time taxable employment (rather than so much black market cash in hand stuff).
I've never run a pub, but I do know that it is very hard work and a very long day - as it stands.
Some of the best people in the trade are entrepreneurial types and interesting characters who mostly love beer and selling it. Despite being hard working they still expect and demand at least some quality of life - some time to themselves and control over their destiny.
That would be very sad if they all disappeared. They come from a gentler age when money wasn't EVERYTHING! It remains to be seen whether so many of them will stick at it against such growing price competition.
Then all we'll be left with are the cloned retail managers. Those I've come across so far have been dismal - experts in marketing course blandness and how to sell keg beers and processed food - but more importantly specially trained to make lots of money for their masters.
I would have liked to have seen flexible hours along the Scottish model. Instead we've got a raft of changes - badly thought out and in many ways detrimental to the whole trade. Don't get me started on PELs!
The future looks very cloudy indeed. I hope my pint stays tasty, fresh and clear. I might just have to pay more for it though if I don't want to drink it in a place that looks like a 6th form common room.
I believe that the figure is 6/week closing *more* than opening, but no doubt someone will know.
Oh yes they do.
Look at the turnover in licensees.
Whilst it may seem reasonable to state that not all pub owners are really customer conscious, I have yet to go to a bar in Spain/Greece etc. where the beer is good and the owner customer conscious. And yet they seem to thrive:-(
The local licensees were anxious to keep their establishments open. The government favoured killing animals and rewarding farmers. The government only told outsiders to keep away, in the form of the Maffia.
DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.