JDW Tasting Notes

well, it is , isn't it?

Well, as bitters go it *is* one of the paler ones.

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@ukgateway.net

The OP had me confused too - last I had it, it seemed pale gold in colour. cheers MikeMcG

Not really or at all in fact. It is mid brown. Not pale or golden.

Peter

Exactly. I was beginning to get worried there:) Interesting that some people do see it as "golden coloured." All the local drinkers I spoke to agreed with your appraisal,none mentioning "golden", whilst the landlords I checked with all quoted amber as its precise colour. Which is what I thought-hence my OP.

Robbie's website has the 'Cyclops' thing for it - "Golden, spicy, hoppy, malty, bitter/sweet balance." cheers MikeMcG

Must be colour blind at Robbies Mike. It's all that strong yeast. Does your eyes in.

Peter

Yes I've seen that and obviously that's where JDW are getting their info from. I thought the discrepancy would be obvious but only Peter seems to have picked up on it. It actually brings up another point-the accuracy of Cyclops. Haven't seen too much of it, but hope the rest is better than this example. Brewery notes can be very misleading-I can't count how many times I've come across a beer described as hoppy, only to discover a distinct lack of hops. Hence, Camra's independent tasting panels and their work for the GBG.

The Greater Manchester Tasting Panel, chaired by the legendary Graham Chinn, class Unicorn as an amber beer. That's good enough for me.

It would be for me if the beer wasn't brown (-: Peter

There's an "old school", a prominent member of which is Protzki, who regularly use "hoppy" to mean "distinctly bitter".

Well, yes, the bitterness comes from the hops but isn't it more useful to use "bitterness" for "bitterness" and "hoppy" for the interesting fruity/herbal flavours?

yep, I couldn't agree more - AFAIR all brewers & most wise drinkers that I've met have agreed that these terms refer to exactly what you say & correspond to the way in which the hops were added to the brewing process (bitterness coming largely from early kettle additions; hoppiness coming largely from later additions in kettle, hopback, FV, CT, cask, etc)

To believe otherwise is daft IMO - like those who object to the term 'real ale' on philosophical or brewing history grounds (or object to 'organic' to describe food/drinks produced with no artificial fertilisers, pesticides, etc). While I can understand that 'hoppy' may have previously meant 'with lots of hops' generally, or even 'bitter' specifically - it no longer does mean this.

Words change meaning with time & with particular context & in order to get your meaning across beer writers should accept that this word 'hoppy' means fruity/floral/herbal hop aroma/flavour & not bitterness. cheers MikeMcG

I tend to agree with this but sometimes the term "hoppy" is a good catch all for those who aren't too sure what exactly they are experiencing.

I think we have to be careful about deciding that words have changed their meaning. Hoppiness and fruitiness are two terms I wouldn't like to conflate, even though fruitiness, particularly tropical or citrus fruitiness is likely to come from hops. Other fruitiness is as likely to come from the yeast or the brewing technique itself.

I think if you were to say "can mean" I'd be happier. Certainly through the term "hoppy" without further explanation is hardly illuminating.

As you say words change their meaning. To get back on topic, brown is now amber! Must remember that next time I jump the lights on brown!

Peter

Mmmm, I think it's confusing to be imprecise about the flavours or terms.

agreed. I could have been clearer - my point wasn't that fruitiness couldn't come from other sources (as you say, it can - from the grist, mashing procedure or fermentation by-products) - my main objection was to the use of the word 'hoppy' to describe 'bitterness'.

as much as your happiness (& hoppiness) is important to me ;~) I'm not happy with that - what else can/should 'hoppy' mean other than 'with lots of late hop aroma/flavour' - that seems fairly clear to me & clearly distinct from the term & taste of 'bitterness'.

I would say it is quite illuminating a word to many drinkers - it tends to mean "highly-flavoured with fresh late hop character" the actual flavours will be dependent on hop variety, but they're often broadly similar (or perhaps I'm just not very good at identifying many varieties or even countries of origin?! - I can usually spot cascades, or US hops, tho).

What about the Chancellor's & Stranglers' favourite - Butt's Golden Brown?

I think I was confused about which Robinson's beer I enjoyed a while back in one of their Stockport pubs(Blossoms?) - it was golden & hoppy & reminded that regionals could brew decent flavourful beer - turns out after consulting google groups, that it was I think the ordinary bitter I was referring to (now if that's not golden coloured, I'm really confused! cheers MikeMcG

Agreed but you have already pointed out that there is differences of interpretation and usage and these while maybe imprecise, are usually understood by the majority. For the minority who know more or care more, I would agree.

I refer to my earlier paragraph and wot Mr Protz says

Me too and Bramling Cross is a dead giveaway. Fuggles usually and one or two more.

Chancellor? Oh. Gordon Amber.

Ask the BLO?

Peter

Er no, Unicorn is the new name for best bitter! And golden and hoppy is not how any Robbies drinkers I know would describe it. However, I begin to see a bit of (golden?) light at the end of this particular tunnel. Could it be you were actually drinking one of their seasonals? That would explain a lot. Sunny Jim springs to mind as one possible candidate.

confused about which Robinson's beer I enjoyed a while

Nope, it was definitely a year-round beer - in my posting here about it a couple of years back , I called it "the ordinary strength bitter . . . fresh, hoppy, balanced & just delicious" so I didn't describe it as golden, but that's how I remember it! ho hum. cheers MikeMcG