Burton Union vs. skimming or blow-off vs. anti-foaming agents

This question arises as the result of my recent reading of several different threads on different forums which individually treated the various methods listed in the subject line; I am therefore cross posting this to several homebrew forums.

First, I understand that Dan Listermann has been working on a prototype of a Burton Union for use by homebrewers. I read as much info as I could find about Burton Unions through Google, and as best I can tell -- and someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- the liquid which settles from the krausen is simply recycled back into the beer (I surmise that that would be the krausen that would normally be lost via a blow off tube). One article spoke of recycling the _yeast_ in this way, and the only thing I could figure from that is that some top-fermenting ale yeast is probably carried away with the krausen, but I can't believe that the benefits of this method is simply about yeast, especially if the amount of yeast pitched was adequate. Also, I understand that in using the Burton Union, some of the undesirable nasties in the krausen cling to the equipment and never make it back into the wort; how much of the nasties are eliminated is a question that I will get back to. Anyway, I pretty much look at this method as a way to rescue good beer that would otherwise be wasted when a blow-tube is used, but this method is certainly reputed to do something good for beer flavor or body or whatever -- at least for some types of beer.

Second, there was some recent discussion of the advantages of skimming the krausen, with some gurus feeling that it is definitely beneficial for beer flavor. Now, common sense tells us that skimming can only occur if the primary is done in a bucket or other container with a large enough of an opening for access to skim; however, it also seems to me that when folks ferment 5 gallon batches in a 5-gallon carboy with a blow-tube, "blow-off" of the krausen essentially accomplishes almost the same thing as skimming. Of course, with a bucket you can be sure to remove _all_ of the krausen, whereas with a carboy you will always still have part of it which remains in the headspace. Folks who use the larger 6.5 or 7 gallon carboys for a 5-gallon batch no doubt lose a _lot_ less of the krausen, if any, so in the carboy-world, large versus small carboys is roughly equivalent to skimming or not skimming, at least for volatile fermentations.

Of course, with both carboys and buckets, some of the krausen sticks to the sides and never settles back into the beer; I have read that this helps rid the brew of nasties, but unless there is some particular molecular attraction taking place that would draw the nasties over to the sides where they can stick, I wouldn't think that more than a _very_ small percentage of them end up clinging to the sides, with the rest just settling back down into the beer -- unless they have been blown-off or skimmed.

Third, there has been some discussion about using anti-foaming agents to reduce or eliminate the krausen during fermentation without having any appreciable effect on head retention, and that raises two logical possibilities in my mind: first, that the anti-foam causes some chemical reaction that interferes with foaming (e.g., perhaps reducing surface tension) without actually affecting the stuff that krausen consists of, or second, the anti-foam somehow binds with the stuff that causes or ends up in the krausen. If it is the second, the question then arises whether the bound substances settle out of the beer into the trub, and if so, are just the 'nasties' settling or does some good stuff settle, too. Also, if no krausen forms when anti-foam is used, there will be nothing clinging to the sides of the fermenter, with whatever consequences that has. The chemical effects of anti-foam are apparently temporary, since head retention is supposed to be unaffected; I presume this means that the anti-foam breaks down or is perhaps metabolized by yeast by the time the beer is consumed, or perhaps carbonation reacts with it to neutralize it.

Now, there will always be diverging opinions among folks when it comes to a matter of taste; that will explain why some folks skim and others don't (and not just because they're too lazy to do it). This is perhaps further reinforced by the notion that a Burton Union is tantamount to _NOT_ skimming (unless there is some processing of the krausen before it is returned) and is supposed to be beneficial to beer, while certain gurus insist that skimming _IS_ beneficial. On the other hand, my interest in anti-foaming agents has more to do with advantages other than beer flavor, so long as it is not detrimental to it -- but insofar as flavor goes, if B.U./non-skimming _really_is_ the way to go, and if anti-foam essentially accomplishes the same thing, then it will be an added bonus. Any thoughts about this will be appreciated.

Now I'll conclude with a few questions:

  1. Is it likely that a Burton Union is better for use with only a limited number of beer styles, such as those ales which were brewed in Burton, rather than an across-the-board application? If so, that might account for why skimming is deemed better, at least for those other styles of beer.

  1. Does anyone know if anti-foam has essentially the same effect on beer characteristics as a Burton Union? (Sorry, Dan, if I seem to be undermining any future marketing of your device; will it be a 'Phil-Burt' Union? ;-)

I would very much like to see replies from folks who use anti-foam, especially beginning with the boil (I understand from some posts that anti-foam in the boil is effective in preventing boil-overs).

Thanks, and good brewing to all.

Bill Velek

Reply to
Bill Velek
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I can fill a carboy to near its top and usually recover almost all the blow off.

One article spoke of recycling the _yeast_ in this way, and the

I have been disapointed in the amount of yeast that settles in the Burton Union.

Also, I understand that in

Almost all of it ends up on the walls of the Burton union jug.

I have used it for all kinds of beers.

With anti foam ( I love this stuff) you don't get much of the "nasties" sticking to the sides. I believe that almost all of it falls back into the beer.

It does put the Kabosh to boilovers.

PS. "Philbert" is a pet name for Philip. "PhilBurt System" I like that. Thanks!

Reply to
Dan Listermann

Does anti-foam kill head retention?

Reply to
Michal Palczewski

snipped some good info and answers to some of my questions.

Thanks, Dan.

Yes, I knew someone named Phil was we called "Philbert", except we used to tease him and tell him it was because he was a nut, i.e., Filbert (aka 'hazel nut').

By the way, why do you have so many products that begin with Phil, when your name is Dan?

Thanks.

Bill

Reply to
Bill Velek

I use an anti-foam compound prevent boilover routinely (in fact, always). I use it both in making starters and in the main boil -- not much more than one drop per gallon (well, maybe 2 drops), just as the wort comes to a boil. Add it in any earlier and it may not work well, or may not work at all.

Head retention is totally unaffected when this stuff is used this way. I can't vouch for its effects during fermentation, since I've never used it in a fermentor. I suspect the claims that it falls out of suspension during fermentation are pretty accurate, though -- I'd be surprised if even the larger quantities used in the fermentor (I think mine calls for a tsp/5 gallons) caused a problem.

Hope that helps -- m

Reply to
The Artist Formerly Known as K

Not in the least. I believe that it is kept in suspension mechanically and simply falls out with the sediment.

Reply to
Dan Listermann

Philip is our oldest son. He is 23 now.

Reply to
Dan Listermann

Bill Velek wrote: [snip]

I do a lot of fairly delicate continental lagers (some of which win the occasional ribbon), and have experimented with both skimming and trub separation. I have really found no noticeable difference in the finished product when skimming is used (split ferments).

I'm still undecided on trub separation, however.

I use an anti foaming agent for boilover control -- see my other post.

Cheers -- m

Reply to
The Artist Formerly Known as K

The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote: snip

snip

Since you use it in the boil, then any remnants of the anti-foam would naturally also be in the wort during aeration and fermentation, but they also might be destroyed by the end of the boil; what sort of technique do you use for aeration, and does your wort foam? And what sort of fermentations do you have; any high kaeusen?

Seems to me that if you have foaming during either aeration or fermentation, then I guess the anti-foam has either evaporated or been broken-down by then. If you _don't_ have foaming during one or both of those stages, then it is probably due to your using the anti-foam in your boil.

Sounds like the worst case scenario is that I'd have to add it twice: a couple of drops at the front of the boil, and then some more immediately before aeration to reduce foaming while I oxygenate the wort, and hopefully the anti-foam would still be active enough to prevent foaming during the fermentation (I suspect it would because I usually reach high kaeusen within a day).

Thanks for the info.

Cheers and good brewing.

Bill Velek

Reply to
Bill Velek

snip

snip

When you use it in starters, I'd think that there is a good chance that it would also end up in your fermenter. Have you noticed any reduction of your kraeusen when you use a starter that had anti-foam added to it?

Thanks.

Bill Velek

Reply to
Bill Velek

You definitely need to add it again if you intend to use it during fermentation -- I get a normal kreusen head in the fermentor (even had a few blowouts when I got careless with higher gravity ales).

My guess is that the anti-foam drops out early in the boil.

Reply to
The Artist Formerly Known as K

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