Interesting stuff! I really DO want to look into all grain. Is there a substantial savings even if you buy your grains from a local homebrewer? I figure after I get it figured out, like which base grains to keep around, I'll buy bulk over the internet. So, if I understand you correctly, if I transfer from my primary to my secondary, the trub that's left in the primary, I can just add new wort to? Hell, that's a $7.50 savings right there! Why would each batch need to be darker than the first? Thanks for the information!
I buy from a LHBS. They are pretty high. My last all-grain batch, a pale ale, was about $28. That's still about $0.55 per bottle, still lots cheaper than off-the-shelf (~$7.00/6 = $1.17 ea).
I pay a little more to use a local supplier (I'd like for him to stick around!).
That would reduce the costs. I've not done that yet (I've not bought a mill yet).
You are correct. There are a few simple "rules" to this that folks on here have learned by experience: 1. Don't do it more than about 4 or 5 times or you'll risk a. increasing bacterial infection (bit me!), and b. yeast mutation (probably not significant for a LOT of generations). 2. You can use primary or secondary yeast. Primary is dirtier but the yeast may be more floculant. Secondary is cleaner, but *may* not floculate as well - tho' many people use secondary yeast without any problems. 3. You don't need all of it... you can use, say, a cupful or so. Especially if you re-use multiple times, you certainly don't need more and more and more yeast. 4. If doing different styles, do the lightest first and then more dark. I suppose that this is to prevent the dark leftovers from darkening the new, lighter, beer. 5. If doing different gravities, do the lighest gravity first, then heavier, and heavier. IMHO color may not matter much, except to darken you next, lighter, batch too much, but fermenting a heavy gravity beer will take a larger toll on the yeast health, so you don't want to use the weaker yeast to start the next batch. 6. You can save the yeastcake for some period of time between uses, either in the fermenter or poured into a sanitized jar (quart, etc). The shorter time-period the better (weeks are OK). Refridgerated would be best (not frozen). A loose cap would prevent pressure buildup from breaking your jar, etc. 7. You can also build up a yeast batch from the dregs of a previous homebrew bottle, using several iterations of starters. I've done that with excellent results on occasion (if you have the time).
These are general rules and you can break any one or two of them within reason. Ie., I wouldn't sweat doing a 1.0050 then a 1.0040 after that (breaking rule $5), but I wouldn't do a 1.100 then a 1.035! Or, if the
5th iteration had absolutely no off flavors (usually sourness), then you might go a 6th, etc.
A yeast reuse would have reduced my $28 batch cost above to just over $20 (but I wanted to try a different)!
I've printed all of your advice that I snipped to save for future reference, thanks! So, do you buy in bulk from your LHBS, or just the amount you need per batch? If you buy in bulk, what do you personally use as a base grain?
I only buy each batch and have them crush it. I only make a handful of beers ordinarily and my base is always Pale or Pilsner malt. The only other base that I might consider would be Munich - my occasional Oktoberfest can be 50/50 Pilsner/Munich (or even more Munich if I feel like it). So, I'd get a bag of Pale, Pilsner, and probably a Munich. Then some medium crystal and I could make most of my beers.
I like to keep onhand a good pale ale and a pilsner (lager). I also often make an Oktoberfest, a Sam Adams Boston Lager clone, and a CAP. Right now I also have a stout and Denny's Rye IPA (these were two that were unusual for me to make).
All grain is my way now, and I haven't looked back for years. An average batch for me runs between $14 and $18, with only specials going higher.
Grains I don't worry about too much. I buy a big lot from one of the online merchants. Lately it's been Williams Brewing. This I place in a plastic container for safe keeping. The hops I frequently do buy larger quantities of, and I always make sure that there's a couple of packets of the dry yeast around in case my cultures (I do keep my own culture of yeast going that I got from the local brewpub masterbrewer).
The difference is mostly in the time it takes to brew. No 1.5-2 hours mashing, sparge time,etc. Not too mention the cost. Bulk grains generally cost about $1/lb, specialty (wheat,black patent etc.) closer to $2/lb.
Use enough of a decoction mash and I can turn pale malt into a nice brown ale. D
Thanks for the info. What do you use as a "base grain"? Just whatever two row you can get? I'd like to learn a LOT more about all grain before I try it for the first time. Seems that everything I read about it contradicts what I previously read! What system do you use? I'd like to do something akin to a combination mash tun - lauter tun, like a round cooler with a manifold or false bottom. Then I'll need a wort pot big enough for the whole five gallon batch, and would look into getting two, to do a ten gallon batch! Also, I'll need to make a wort chiller out of copper tubing. What length would you think that needs to be? Thanks for any information!
OK, As for what grain I use, typically I pick an American 2row. Usually I get it from one of the online stores. Typically I try to find a lightly kilned pale malt, because I have also adopted the decoction mash technique with which I can turn the palest malt alone into a deep amber if I want.
My mash tun is a 5.5 gallon Igloo round "Max" drink cooler. I transfer it all to my lauter tun which is made from an older rectangular cooler (30-40 quart size, I don't really know) that I have built a CPVC manifold system in, rather than a false bottom. The manifold is a series of 1/2 inch tubes fit together in a ladder shape covering the bottom of the cooler spaced about 1 inch apart. The bottom sides of each of these is saw cut about 1/3 to 1/2 way through. I did it on the bottom because then the weight of the grains above won't press the grains into the slots. The manifold is connected to a fitting I made also out of CPVC which replaces the old drain valve on the cooler and leads to a ball valve and elbow down for a spigot. If, on the rare occasion I'm using a lighter grain bill in the recipe I was concerned about haveing a too shallow grainbed, I did leave the option of dropping a pot full of water into the cooler first to reduce the area for the grains. Seems to work really well. I also made a sparge sprinkler our of the extra CPVC by drilling some holes (1/16th inch) through the sides of the tubing and a few connectors to make a ring which I brace accross the top of the cooler. I usually use my bottling bucket to hold the sparge water and regulate the flow with the attached valve.
The boil pots I use are ones I picked up from a restaraunt that was closing up. I have a 10 and a 15 gallon stock pot depending on the batch. The chiller is made from a 50 ft coil of copper tubing (3/8 inch) 20 feet are used in an ice bath coil which chills the water down to near freezing before it reaches the boil pot, where the remaining 30 feet are immersed. The two coils are connected with clear vinyl tubing. The hot side gets a little soft if I slow the flow down too much, but turning up the flow a little ensures that I won't heat up that side too much.
My setup isn't pretty, but it works well. One note, the only fittings I glued in the lauter tun were the valve and trhough hull connections so that I could pull the whole thing apart for easy cleaning afterward. After all with all the holes cut in it, I don't really think I have to worry about it leaking. D
I'm thinking of using just a rectangular ice chest for both mash and lauter. Is there any reason why I can't mash in the same vessel?
I'm probably going to start doing 10 gallon batches once I get the hang of all grain. But I may want to do some five gallon batches, so I'll keep your idea of a pot of water to take up space in the cooler. Will a 40 quart cooler be big enough for about any 10 gallon batch?
Okay, I'm getting ready to build a mash tun / lauter tun out of a 10 gallon Gott cooler. I figure I'll go with the ten gallon to give myself enough volume so that I can do ten gallon batches in the future, but the diameter of the Gott will give me enough grain bed if I do five gallons. Sound right? I'm going to make a manifold for the bottom out of copper pipe with slits in it cut with a hacksaw. For the fly sparge, in the lid, I'll have a round pipe formed with holes in it. Now the NEW questions after reading and such. Let's say I do 5 gallon recipe. Initially, you use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain, correct? Then when it comes time to sparge, you just sparge until you reach your five gallon level? This is where I'm confused! I don't know when to turn off the sparge water and let the mash drain! Do I just let the sparge water run until I get five gallons then shut everything off? Thanks again for your help.
Check Denny's link that the last poster gave for an alternative (the rectangular cooler is much cheaper and the batch sparging is simpler for most folks).
That's what I have ... it works great. Here's a picture of mine:
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Denny uses the stainless hose braid, which you'll see in his pictures.
Right. Anywhere from 1.25:1 on up to 2:1 is fine. I usually use 1.5, just because the mash isn't so thick.
One point you didn't mention was the strike water, temp and volume. The
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website has some simplified equations that you can use by hand, or do as most folks do and use some sort of brewing software to figure it (Promash, Strangebrew, etc.).
Actually, there are several points here. In all-grain, you usually sparge enough out so that AT THE END OF YOUR BOIL you have your 5 gallons (or whatever your target it). For me, that's about 7.5 gallons and a
90 minute boil. For a 60 minute boil, you'd need about 6 gallons out. There *is* one limit, which you probably won't worry about, it is, if you fly sparge, you sparge NO LONGER than when it reaches 1.010 (temperature corrected, which is about 1.000 uncorrected).
(Note if you don't have a 10 gallon pot, you CAN split the wort and boil separately. Many of us have done that successfully.)
Denny's page talks about batch sparging, which I suggest you at least try a time or two.
Finally, the sparge volume isn't horribly critical. You can always add water to you boil if it gets too low, etc. You can also add water in your fermenter if your gravity is too high. (However, it is more difficult to remove water! :).
Mine's something like a 36 quart and I could easily triple my grain load in it. I usually do 5 gallon batches because I have three fermentors which I try to keep in constant rotation, one in primary fermentation, one in secondary fermentation, and one clean to take the new batch. I would imagine that the 40 quart could handle a ten gallon batch with somehting like 25-28 pounds of grain in it.
Plenty of folks mash and lauter in the same can. I don't because I like to stir with vigor when I mix the mash. Doing that causes the fines and the grain to get impacted into the openings of the lauter system. At least the one that I was using. Transferring the grains and barleyjuice to the second cooler is easy enough so I just never saw the need to condense the system. D
How much to sparge is a vexed question. I sparge and take hydrometer readings until the specific gravity drops to what ever set point I am looking for. This number changes based upon what I want my original gravity to be, and I calculate it based upon the initial runnings gravity and so forth. Then I allow a little for the evaporation, unless I am going to add makeup water during the boil.
Being an environmental chemist, I am hesitant to use copper in my brewing just because the copper erodes in an acidic environment. You'll notice that the copper comes out of the brew pot nice and shiny even if it went in kind of dull and dark. All the dull and dark went into the wort. I use CPVC which is the high temperature pvc piping for my lauter manifold. I do use copper in my immersion chiller but pvc is a lousy heat transfer medium. It's hard to beat copper for this, I suppose gold would work really well, but buying 50 feet of gold tubing sounds like a positively rediculous expense. The copper that goes into the beer probably isn't going to be enough to do any harm, but it's my opinion that the dissolved copper will inhibit the yeast's full potential. Copper is a powerful anti-microbial agent used commonly in the anti-fouling paints on the bottoms of ships etc. I've never tested the copper addition to wort via the solution from assorted fixtures, and enough brewers are using it with great success that I figure that it can't be real problem, but I just decided that I was going to eliminate it from my brewing process as best I can anyway. I will say that I can pitch a packet of dry yeast into room or slightly higher temp wort and it will be bubbling away within 3-4 hours since eliminating the copper parts in my brewing. Previously, I didn't see the bubbling until 7-8 hours had passed. The down side is that if I put 5 full gallons in a 6 gallon fermentor, I need a blow off tube for the first day because the krausen will come through the top. It's not really a scientific analysis of the situation, just my experience but I don't really brew scientifically anyway. D
Another question has arisen for me! I've learned from reading, that batch sparging isn't as efficient as fly sparging. I intend to do a double batch sparge, with half of the needed sparge water being used each time. I'd think that that would be pretty effective, maybe as effective as fly sparging. Would I need to add extra grain for this, or not? Some things I've read said that 5% more grain is a good idea, some not. Thanks.
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