I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley

Have a question or want to show off your project? Post it! No Registration Necessary.  Now with pictures!

Threaded View


I was just watching a recorded show which includes a segment from the
Yuengling brewery, which includes this statement:

Reporter: "The malt is transferred to a mash tun where it's mixed with
boiled pulverized corn known as grits."

Yuengling Rep: "In this vessel ... (referring to the mash tun) ... we
have about thirteen thousand pounds of grits and about a thousand pounds
of malt."

HOLY COW!!!  Thirteen parts corn to one part malt; I would never have
figured there would be enough diastatic power in malt for something like
that.

I also found it surprising that, according to the Yuengling Rep, that
"One degree of difference in the mash vessel will actually give you
quite a bit of difference in alcohol content or non-fermentable sugar
content in the finished product."  Is that an exaggeration?  ONE degree
can make QUITE a difference?

Anyway, it is still a very interesting show, and I appreciate receiving
the copy.

Cheers.

Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com
780+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol
630+ just for Growing Hops/Herbs/Grains: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv
NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang
Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley



Quoted text here. Click to load it

The corn grits in the cereal cooker will not be converted to sugar very
much.  The malt added to the cooker is there to break down glutens so the
corn does not erupt from the cooker in a mass of hot snot ( technical term.)
The actual saccharinfication for the bulk of the now gelatinized corn
happens in the mash tun .



Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Dan Listermann wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

So, if I understand you correctly, the reporter just mis-identified the
"cereal cooker" as the "mash tun", and then the Yuengling Rep who was
standing in front of it and merely referred to it as "this vessel", just
never corrected him.  That makes sense.  So I guess the purpose of the
cereal cooker is to gelatinize the starches in the grits?  Thanks for
clarifying this.

Cheers.

Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com
780+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol
630+ just for Growing Hops/Herbs/Grains: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv
NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang
Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

   Yes on all counts.

   At least they showed off the cereal cooker.  Some brewery
tours don't go out of their way to talk about adjuncts.
--

Joel Plutchak                   "They're not people, they're HIPPIES!"
$LASTNAME at VERYWARMmail.com            - Eric Cartman

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley



Quoted text here. Click to load it

During a tour of Miller's  Trenton, OH brewery, when asked about the cereal
cookers, I was told that they are no longer used.  They now use corn syrup.



Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Considering that they don't use hops either (they use some sort of
isomerized hop extract that supposedly doesn't react with UV), this doesn't
come as much of a surprise.

Garbage in, garbage out.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?


Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

I believe most large breweries use hop extract these days .... according to
Brew-Your-Own this month ;-)

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

  People tend to make rules for others and exceptions for themselves.

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley



Quoted text here. Click to load it

Even the Germans use a lot of hop extract.



Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Scott Alfter wrote:

snip

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I've never used hop extract, but wouldn't think that it is necessarily
inferior to using regular hops.  What's the problem with hop extract?

Cheers.

Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com
780+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol
630+ just for Growing Hops/Herbs/Grains: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv
NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang
Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

It's not so much a swipe at hop extract (I've never used it and wasn't
aiming to disparage it) so much as it was an opportunity to direct some
snark at one of the megaswill brewers.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?


Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


I agree the point of the malt in that cooker is as Dan describes.

But, an amazing fact is that malt has way more than enough diastatic
power than it needs to convert 13 times its weight in adjunct.  From
Malting and Brewing Science, as reported on HBD by Steve Alexander I
think: a pound of Halcyon pale malt was found to have enough alpha
amylase to convert 88 pounds of starch.  (Unfortunately there's only
enough beta amylase to convert 3.5 pounds of starch--so you can't get
a very fermentable "beer" this way.)

And yes these are lab results from a lab process, don't try to make a
beer this way unless you're just screwing around, yada yada yada.

Baums

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


I think most folks are misreading what was being said there.  There may
very well have been 13,000 pounds of cooked corn grits and 1,000 pounds
of cooked barley malt in the mash tun.  This would have been dumped in
there from the cooker.  The statement was most likely made before the
additional malt was added to the mash tun.  I would believe that the
confusion has been a result of what was left out of the article.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley



Quoted text here. Click to load it

In the American double mash method, the cooked adjuncts are used as strike
water for the main mash.  I would think that the main malt charge would have
been mixed with the cooked adjuncts as they are added to the mash tun.



Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


baumssl27@yahoo.com wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Somebody please tell me where I'm going wrong. Alpha- and beta- amylase
are enzymes, right? Enzymes don't get used up or destroyed in the
reaction, right? It seems to me that if you maintain the proper
temperature, the only thing stopping the reaction is when all the starch
is converted. It just depends upon how long you want to wait. So the
amylase in a pound of barley malt should eventually convert the starch
in any amount of adjunct. It might take a few weeks or months though.

The same argument could be applied to how many Beano tablets to use. The
best answer is "none", but the question comes up from time to time. The
active ingredient is galactosidase, another enzyme. This is known to
continue until all the unfermentable sugars are broken down. There is no
way to stop it. The yeast takes it from there, producing an extremely
dry beer. The end result doesn't depend upon whether you use 4 tablets
or 12, just the time it takes to run its course.

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Whirled Peas wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
This is going by memory, but I believe at mash temperatures, both
amylases are denatured over time -- they don't last indefinitely in the
presence of heat. It's not actually the reactions that kill them off --
ultimately it's the heat.


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Sure -- but then beano is used at a far lower temperature.


--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)

Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

   The missing piece of information is that enzymes denature over
time. IIRC for brewing enzymes the time we're talking about is on
the order of hours, rather than days.
--

Joel Plutchak                   "They're not people, they're HIPPIES!"
$LASTNAME at VERYWARMmail.com            - Eric Cartman

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Joel wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Thanks, y'all. I had been wrongly thinking there was a single
temperature above which the enzymes would be absolutely denatured and
below which they would be absolutely stable. It is more consistent that
there would be a range of temperatures and activities.

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


Quoted text here. Click to load it

Most of the homebrewing books like to state the enzyme/temp range for the mash
as an absolute (for example 150 - 158).  What they don't really mention is
that they're making a certain set of assumptions in order to recommend
that range.  It's not really the case that anything above 158 (or whatever
number they give) will instantly halt conversion, but rather that the time
it takes for them to denature above that temp will probably be less than the
time it would take to reach complete conversion given a typical amount of
enzymes available.  Also, it's not really the case that your mash will not
convert at all below 150, but rather that it'll likely take longer than
your average brewer is willing to wait.

While it is simpler to make some common assumptions in order to give a range
recommendation like that, it does sometimes lead to a few myths.  Like the
idea that a mashout will immediately halt conversion, which isn't really true.
Or that the mash won't convert if your temps during the mash are a little too
low. Etc.

We're already starting to see homebrewers pushing the boundaries of what the
older books stated by getting into the 140s with mash temps.  When I started
brewing (around 15 years ago), that would be almost unheard of.  These days
it's a common technique if you want a really dry beer.

In the case of 1 lbs of grain being able to convert 80+ lbs of adjunct, that
may be possible given perfect conditions, but those conditions are going to
be *way* outside the area that homebrewers will be operating in.  I guess
in theory if you could figure out how to make an enzyme never denature you
would be able to get 1 grain to convert and entire universe full of adjuncts,
but you probably wouldn't want to wait for the couple of eons that it would
take.  ;)


John.

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley


John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:

snip

Quoted text here. Click to load it

snip

Papazian's old book "New Complete Joy ...", (c)1991, p.254, states:
"Alpha-amylase works best (but not exclusively!) at ... 149-153F
(65-67C).  It will become deactivated within 2 hours at ... 153F (67C).
Beta-amylase works best (but not exclusively!) at 126-144F (52-62C). It
will become deactivated within 40-60 minutes at a temp of 149F (65C)."

So, for example, if a brewer mashes-in at around 154F, and after an hour
of mashing the temp has dropped to maybe 148F, I'd figure an average
temp of 151F, plus a mashout that raises the temp to 170F followed by
some time for vorlauf and sparging at 170F, then I'd say that according
to Charlie all of the Beta should be denatured, and probably a pretty
significant amount of the Alpha is denatured ... if Charlie is correct.

Homebrewing for Dummies, (c)1997, p.115, doesn't say much more than:
"In terms of the mashing temperature's effect on the finished beer,
higher temperatures (153-158F) create a less fermentable wort, and
conversely, lower temperatures (148F-153F) produce a more fermentable
wort."  I do not interpret that to necessarily be a contradiction of
Charlie's figures, because the ranges given are not represented as the
ideal ranges for either Alpha or Beta; rather, I interpret that as a
recommendation that mash should be primarily done from 148F to 158F,
with the low end rendering a more fermentable beer than the high end.

John Palmer's "How to Brew" states: "The temperature most often quoted
for mashing is about 153F. This is a compromise between the two
temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162F,
while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature,
working best between 131-150F."  As you can see, John Palmer's text
_DOES_ 'contradict' Papazian's Alpha preferences of 149-153F because
they don't even overlap, and Palmer is a bit higher, though overlapping,
on the Beta-range, so I don't know who is correct on those points.  It
seems logical to me that all of your enzymes probably work at the
highest temperatures _while_they_last_, but that they quickly denature
at those high temps; it therefore wouldn't surprise me if both enzymes
would be cleaving like crazy at a temp like 170F, but quickly denature
before they can aggregate a lot of cleavage (hmmm ... "lot of cleavage"
... I need to get to bed, but I digress).  And it would logically follow
that at a very high temp, such as boiling, they probably denature
immediately without cleaving anything.  Just a suspicion on my part.

Of course, the effectiveness of the enzymes is affected by the pH, too.

Cheers.

Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com
780+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol
630+ just for Growing Hops/Herbs/Grains: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv
NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang
Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv

Re: I had no idea of the diastatic power of malted barley



Quoted text here. Click to load it


Agreed, that is crazy that they are able to use 13:1.

For the alcohol content I expect he is speaking specifically to their need
to hit an exact mark everytime.  For them a tenth of a percent either way
probably is a big difference.  This is purely speculation on my part though
as I am not familiar with the processes and operations of a large scale
brewery (or any brewery for that matter).    :)

Duke


Site Timeline