sugar vs dme addition to brew

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I just bought a coopers wheat beer kit (3.75lbs of malt/wheat syrup), it
says to add 1kg of brewing sugar, but i'd rather put in dme or some
sugar and dme for a maltier flavour (and better head?).  How much should
i use though.. by my math (syrup yields about 1.040 sg per gallon) so
the can will give a sg of about 1.030

I'd like the sg at about 1.050-1.060 for the sake of alchohol, but i
don't want it to be weak tasting, hence my reluctance to add
dextrose/sucrose or what have you.  So maybe 2-3 lbs of DME?  Heck or
maybe just a second kit eh. (i'm brewing 23 litres btw).

haha, i just did the math and it looks like 1kg of dme will do the job
(I can exchange one for one).. any recomendations on whether to go all
ldme or to use some sugar as well.  An if sugar what type.  I am also
planning on boiling the wort and adding some hops (in pellet form).  Any
advice?

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
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As a rule of tumbs, 1kg of sugar/dextrose is equivalent to 1.25Kg of DME and
1.5Kg of liquid malt extract. This may varry depending on the amount of
water left in the LME and the % of fermenticible sugar in the extract. Some
malt extract will give more alcohol while other will give more body.
--
Altair (:-o)>=®
"The History of every major Galactic Civilisation tends to pass through
three distinct and recognisable phases... characterised by the questions How
can we eat? Why do we eat? and Where shall we have lunch?"
Douglas Adams.



Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
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thanks that helps a lot and makes sense (It didn't quite make sense that
you could get the same abount of fermentables out of dme as sugar). so
if i go 0.5kg dme and 0.6kg sugar i'll be good to go.

what type of sugar is preferable (ie sucrose/glucose/dextrose etc)?

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
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and
Some

I never used anything else than dextrose (brewers sugar) but once i tried
replacing dextrose with malt extract i never came back and use dextrose now
only for priming. Don't forget that kits ask to use sugar because it's
inexpensive and easy to find. Lots of begening brewers want cheap beers
rather than good beers but if you use malt extract you will see that your
beers will be a lot more tastefull and will have more body, personnaly i
think it worth the few cents more per bottle and i will use sugar only in
special beers like belgian style that ask for candy sugar.

If you haven't done so yet i sugest you read at least the first section at
www.howtobrew.com
--
Altair (:-o)>=®
"The History of every major Galactic Civilisation tends to pass through
three distinct and recognisable phases... characterised by the questions How
can we eat? Why do we eat? and Where shall we have lunch?"
Douglas Adams.



Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Altair wrote:

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Keep in mind that there are some brands of extract that are so
unfermentable that they demand the use of sugar in order to get the
proper FG and body to the beer.  Laaglander and John Bull are 2 that
come to mind.

    ---------->Denny


--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
stephen wrote:

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Yep


Doesn't matter a bit!  Keep in mind that adding extract (either dry or
liquid) will make the beer sweeter, so you might want to consider adding
some bittering hops to balance it.

    ----------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew

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thanks denny, i am going to add 1oz of cascade (for their citrusy bite)
  I know there are generally used as a finishing hop, but i was going to
boil these for about 30 minutes or so.  Hmm this is starting to sound a
little like an experiment to me :) .. I'll just keep track of what i do
in a log though, not hoppy enough?  add more hops! etc

so using white sugar (sucrose) will do the job eh?  I was under the
impression that was not acceptable, i don't remeber why though.

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
stephen wrote:

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sounds like a good plan..here in the Pacific Northwest (where Cascades
originated), we use 'em for everything!

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There is a persistent, though disproven, myth that adding sucrose causes
a "cidery" flavor.  In truth, the cidery flavor comes from old, stale
extract and sucrose provides no flavor of it's own to cover it up, the
way DME would.  If you use fresh extract, there's no problem.

    --------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
It is generally not good to use sucrose (table sugar).  You can get corn
sugar at any health food store and larger grocery stores.  Sucrose can make
your beer taste like cider. I know because I have done it.
Why not make it right?  Get the dextrose and have great beer.

If you use DME, I think it is supposed to be 2:1 (2 times more DME than corn
sugar.)


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Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Kerry Hales wrote:
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No, table sugar is fine...why wouldn't it be?  Sucrose absolutely WILL
NOT make your beer taste cidery!

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Nope, use an equal amount.  Both have about 46 ppg.

    --------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew

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actually table sugar shouldn't be recommended.



Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Jack Slopehead wrote:
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Why?
I assume denny has used it, you give no reason.  If anything maybe the
fructose is unwanted (sucrose is a disaccharide made of glucose and
fructose, whereas maltose is two glucose molecules and fructose is
"sweeter" than glucose).
saying that something should not be recomended is not useful.

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew

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First off... while you strived to get the right answer, table sugar
can be broken down when it boils, which obviously helps for
santization.  The problem most people have is in measuring which if
done wrong can make the beer taste cidery.   I prefer corn sugar or
better yet, DME.  As for your other comment.. I don't know you so fuck
off and die, bitchboy.

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Jack Slopehead wrote:

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No, table sugar absolutley does not cause cidery flavors, if you use it
with fresh extract or in an all grain beer as I've done many times.  I
don't wanna make this a pissing match with credentials, but if you'd
like, I can post mine and you can decide for yourself if I know what I'm
talking about.  Just try it and see...don't automatically accept the old
myths.

    ------------>Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Denny Conn wrote:

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And, to be complete, I should also add that the other requirement is to
keep it as less than 20% of your total fermentables.  I guess I've never
tried a beer that was say, 50% sugar of any kind, so I can't speak from
wexperience there.  But it really doesn't matter if you use corn sugar,
cane sugar, beet sugar or whatever if you keep the amount under 20%.

    ---------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
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The problem is that kits usually ask to add 1Kg of sugar to a kit that is
1.2 Kg of hopped malt extract and sometimes people add more sugar to
increase the abv% resulting in a verry thin beer with notting to hide any
off taste.
--
Altair (:-o)>=®
"The History of every major Galactic Civilisation tends to pass through
three distinct and recognisable phases... characterised by the questions How
can we eat? Why do we eat? and Where shall we have lunch?"
Douglas Adams.



Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
Altair wrote:

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Totally agreed and that was what I was trying to say, although I guess
it didn't come acrosss very well.  It's not the sugar in and of itself,
it's the fact that it doesn't hide any off flavors.

    --------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew

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excellent, that is a very legit reason. By measuring I assume you mean
they add too much.  My bet would be on people wanting more alcohol, but
end up with a "cidery" beer because they added so much sugar they
lightend the body of the beer to the point there is little to no actual
beer flavour left (espcially if you are trying to make a light domestic
style beer).

   >I prefer corn sugar or
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as it seems most do, but I was just trying to weed out whether it is
plain rumour or if there is something to the table sugar / cidery taste
thing.  I'm still curious if anyone has made a beer with a decent amount
of malt and added sugar and had the "cidery" taste.


  >As for your other comment.. I don't know you so fuck
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Hey take it the way you want.  But that's a pretty extreme response (I
meant it as a statement not an insult).  Look at it this way: If you
were to recomend 10w30 oil to someone and I say "you shouldn't recomend
that" that would be pretty useless (the person that cares would get no
information out of the opinion).  Now if I said, "well with his 3
cylinder little metro the oil will be too heavy and posibly cause valve
problems, i'd go with 5w30" That would be useful.  All I wanted was your
reason behind it (which I got so thank you).  Next time i'll leave it at
why :).

Re: sugar vs dme addition to brew
well i'm replying to myself but i found and interesting link on
different sugars and brewing (specifically spirits, but still worthwhile)

http://homedistiller.org/sugar.htm

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