I don't have experience drinking much pu-er, mostly what I've had is green and/or cooked pu. What I've tried to imagine is something that has a flavor somewhere in between those two extremes--if you take all of the "green" flavor away, will the tea be diminished in some way? I've looked at pictures of some of those really really old 1930s or
1950s cakes and I can't help but wonder if at some point the tea just doesn't lose some of its character and complexity. Anyone with better experience have preferences for a certain age of tea that is something less than "as old as I can get it"?
In the 60s when cleaning out the Forbidden City, workers found nearly
2 tons of balled pu-er tea from the size of tennis balls 2 large pumpkins. These teas are presently kept in the Hangzhou Agricultural University & Forbidden City museum. Samples of the tea were tested, & the general opinion was that it has color, but the fragrance & taste are thin. The complexity of the tea was gone. Some experts considered this 2 be the ultimate taste of pu-er: ethereal, now-u-taste-it-now-u- don't flavors - the complexity of the character has submerged but subtly it is still there; but some think that the leaves had oxidized beyond drinkable brew. Zhuang-tse teaches us about the point of diminishing return, & this probably it; only most of us are not as old as some of the aged pu-er
2 say at which point the tea is no longer drinkable. I have sampled pu- er that was from 1920s, & they are still very much drinkable, so I think it is safe to say that pu-er as early as 1920s can still be drunk.
On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production process of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production process pu-er made in the recent years might not even last a decade.
Yes, all puerh teas will eventually peak at one time or another after which things will naturally go downhill. But that said an important factor is storage and whether that aged tea is being cared for in the correct manner. There is an article that is intended to help clarify a few points on this matter. If you are interested it is available at
This sounds reasonable, but I wonder how much is really known about how a Pu'er's characteristics at birth influence its quality decades later. Is there a way to know what some of the great old teas were like as maocha? Were they "quality tea" by standards we would recognize?
Yes, exactly. I don't recall ever reading anything persuasive about what the various blends of maocha that went into historic cakes were like. By "persuasive", I mean based on contemporary observation and tasting, not extrapolation back from what the aged cakes are like now. But I read about tea in English...
ISO-7542-PU, principally.
Seriously, this is a big subject. But roughly, I would say that I like complexity, strength, balance, smoothness, involvement of the whole sensory apparatus from the tip of the tongue through the throat, and support of many varied steeps. Do I expect all of these, especially in a young Pu'er? Not really, but I'm willing to be surprised.
Hi Lew, indeed! Principally this is a big subject, in reality, it is also a very complex subject as well.
ISO-7542-PU is not a good pu-er 2 be cited for standards, IMHO. From its first production in the 80s 2 present, the only things I can say is constant with this tea are that the flavors are typical of cultivated plants in the Meng Hai region.
Quality: A young pu-er made from the cultivated plants would probably give you the complexity involving the whole sensory apparatus that you write about, but a young pu-er made from old, wild trees might not - that may not be an indicator of good pu-er or poor pu-er, it is just that the maocha used are different.
Strength: A young Yi Wu pure region pu-er might taste close 2 being bland, a young Yi Wu blended with other types of maocha might taste fuller in the mouth & lasts more steeps. The taste of the young pu-er might increase in strength in the years 2 come, but so might the blended one. So strength may not necessarily indicate a good pu-er.
Balance: I don't understand what you mean by this qualifier...
Smoothness: Similarly, a young wild grown arbor pu-er might give you a smoother taste than one from the cultivated stock; while an aged twig & large leaves 40 years old pu-er might give you a smoother taste than a young banzhang from the cultivated stock. Does that make the old tea is good quality tea? I don't think so, it is smooth because it is well aged...
If you do not really expect all of these in a pu-er, especially in a young pu-er, then how do you determine if the pu-er you have is a good pu-er, & that it will age well? Or do you believe that a good pu-er is one that tastes awful when young & mellow when aged?
IMPO, a good pu-er must 1st fulfill the criteria 2 age well, & this criteria must have 2 main factors: correct processing of the maocha - we know there are 2 main types of Yun Nan maocha: Dian Lü & Dian Qing. Dian Lü was the main maocha produce in Yun Nan, for making green tea, Dian Qing is the main maocha produce in Yun Nan persuing the Pu-er heat, & used in the making of pu-er. If a pu-er is processed with Dian Lü maocha, then while it tastes good when newly made, it might not age well. The other factor is the aging method, which is a complicated discussion in itself.
Sorry about the nerdy joke: there is no such thing as ISO-7542-PU. And I don't have any particular allegiance to Menghai's 7542 series.
I wasn't claiming to be able to predict how a tea will behave when aged based on how good it is to drink now. That's the real problem, and I'm skeptical of what I've read on the subject, as I said earlier.
By "balance", admittedly a vague term, I mean that the tea shouldn't have too much of one attribute without some countervailing quality. If it's bitter in its principal taste, there should be sweetness too, perhaps in its aftertaste. If it's astringent on the tongue, there should be softness or smoothness somewhere else, maybe in the throat.
Right. I don't see the point in comparing new and old tea. And as you don't exactly say out loud, it's at least conceivable that, given enough time in good storage conditions (another big subject), *any* decent Pu'er will be great to drink.
I. Don't. Know.
As I understand it, these are two different manufacturing processes (Dian Qing not being fully kill-greened) rather than two different cultivars. Do you agree?
Haha, you just gave away a good joke...ISO-8582-PU, anyone?
I can't either, but I know of people who can - 1 told me from looking at the pu-er disc what 2 expect then, 6 months later, & 5 years later; the 5th year was last year, & so far she is correct.
I c, understood now. Some of the 7542 cakes, from around the period of
1988-1992, have a bitterness that lingers at the top of the throat that does not go away. Is this poor quality then? Some say this tiny bit of bitterness will go away in another 10 years time...
It attempts 2 answer your earlier post...the aged pu-er does not appear 2 qualify as 'quality' tea by the present standards. 1 of the best example is the Cultural Revolution Wen Ge bricks, or the early Bao Yan mushroom pu-er. These by present standards do not qualify as 'quality' tea, they were basic rough tea meant 2 quench the thirst...yet now, these are prized.. As for storage, that's is a big subject...most of the aged teas that we so prized now did not go through a systematic or monitored storage process...
I. M. Waitg. 2. Find. Out.
Yes, it is a manufacturing process. No. There are cultivars that are better suited for Dian Lü (especially those cross-bred cultivars) & some better as Dian Qing...
Wow. Would you be willing to try to get her to put her prognostication techniques into words?
At the risk of indirectly asking a woman's age, I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity: While five years is impressive, since the big gains in a Pu'er only happen after, say, twenty years, has she been able to establish a record of prediction on that scale?
If you think of balance as the position on an axis, I don't think it needs to be dead center. I actually enjoy a certain amount of bitterness in tea.
She did, but I don't think it was prediction, more of judgement based on a wealth of knowledge in pu-er. Is the big gain in 20 years your own prognostication? From what I know, pu-er maturity speed varies from place 2 place, from storage method 2 storage method, from maocha quality 2 maocha quality, from processing method 2 processing method. She did tell me how the pu-er might mature into, but I can only tell you if she's spot on in 2022.
A certain amount of bitterness in tea is 2 be expected, but a lingering bitterness that would not go away? Do you accept this as a criteria for good quality tea?
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