Toxins in Chinese teas

Point well taken.

Pete

Agreed on this, and it might also be good to remind people that a lot of manufacturing is moving offshore to places like China only very recently -- in the past 15 years or so. So while Japan might be producing less pollutants now, and while you never think of Japan and imagine polluted rivers and heavy industries, the reality is quite different. I think it's just that when we started to really care about these things, Japan has begun moving it away. It's much more interesting to talk about China, with its booming economy and environmental disaster, than about Japan with (for the longest time) a stagnant economy and environmental issues there.

MarshalN

Word. Japan's economy is a good bit artificial still at this point, and when that starts to catch up to them the environment may take quite a backseat to the almighty buck (yen). I hope it doesn't, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

China has a much deeper and rich history, while Japan is a bit more superficial and "young." A good book is "Japan as #1" it was written a number of years back but a good read for reflection and to measure against real time/events.

China and India are putting much more pressure on Japan and cutting into it quite a bit, again this will have an effect. The question is when. Also, it takes years for the environment to "scrub" itself, and Japan has not been "clean" long enough to fully be out of the woods, better... yes, but not 100% and certainly not enough to base all of my tea consumption on in an effort to avoid toxins/chemicals/etc.

Thanks for the discussion though... hopefully it is useful and not OT to the OP.

- Dominic

OK, I understand this point. It seems we were on slightly different wavelengths. You were thinking more of pollution, which I agree is a real concern in Japan.

My concern with China was more adulteration. Reading about lead in Long Jing makes me very nervous.

Randy

True, pollution is one thing...but spraying pesticides,DDT, green paint, or whatever on the tea leaves is unethical farming.

Funny you mentioned Japan as Number One. Ezra Vogel's course at Harvard was really popular in the 80s. The year after the bubble burst.... attendance dropped like a rock. It was the last time the course was offered.

Nowadays Chinese history/culture/language classes are all the rage. We'll see if it lasts.

MarshalN

Dom> > It's much more

Or lead painted "herbal" mushrooms, or lead in damn near anything in China that is sold by weight. China can be a cesspool for sure, and in no way is Japan analagous... but that air and water and soil is what feeds the tea and plants retain and concentrate these types of things quite well. And then we brew and rebrew and brew some more to extract every last bit out of the tea... it is hard to believe even the "purest" tea is truly all that pure.

Thats why I look at it as a wash with the pros/cons as far as health and just enjoy my tea. If it shortens my life, I enjoyed it that little bit more because of tea. If it lengthens it, then I get to enjoy some more tea. It all is perspective and just realizing all the "organic" "healthy" "safe" foods/countries are no more or less in reality when all is said and done... and sometimes it is the reverse where they are found to be even more harmful than an iradiated semi- meat patty from McBurgers.

- Dominic

Check out this chart:

This probably puts things into perspective. Japan is number 6...china is number 34 and the US is number 29....but the difference between China and Japan is only around 4 years...not that much, really. It could have something to do with health care as well. But it remarkable that the Japanese even live this long considering how much they smoke! Greece is number 17 and they all smoke like chimneys......I think all the olive oil and tomatoes are keeping them alive. (I'm Greek, by the way).

information:

I live in Tucson and am a frequent customer at Seven Cups. The owners, Austin and Zhuping, are sincerely trying to provide the highest quality teas.

As a full-blooded Scotsman (parents immigrated to the US three years before I was born), I grew up drinking black tea and looked upon the green tea served in Chinese restaurants as exotic (and bitter!). My eyes were opened to the wonderful world of tea just over a year ago, when I took a series of six classes from Zhuping at Seven Cups. Of course, that was just the beginning. The real education comes from tasting teas myself and learning from others' experiences.

Alan

But then again.....number 2

In China, as I said before, there is no central regulating organization that judges which farms are green or not, or even defines what "organic" is. There are numerous stamps, stickers, colored baggies, and other 'denotations' of organic food that is popping up in supermarkets all over China, but I don't believe it and if you know what organic food tastes like, you CAN know the difference.

No. It is simply impossible unless you know the people that are responsible for every step of the tea's processing. Finding clean tea in China is like trying to find a clean spot in the Zhujiang (Pearl River).

I know for fact where my green tea comes from, who bags it, and who planted the trees. I have been to visit the plantation and been treated as a guest there and the man that planted the trees is a personal friend of mine. They report each year the amount of fertilizer used and that they don't use pesticides/insecticides because the climate there makes it so it is not needed.

Yes. Most.

That depends. I would be willing to bet most vendors, even in China, do not know exactly where their teas come from. I would also be more willing to bet that they are relatively unconcerned about additives and the health problems that can come from consuming too many of them. The ONE THING that stops me from opening up some kind of shop to peddle tea online is that I am too concerned about how clean the tea is to drink. Actually, these days, I don't drink any mainland wulong....ever...so how could I sell these teas online in good conscience.

Insist as much information from your vendors as possible. The more conscientious vendors will have such information...the others...I wouldn't buy much from them.

from

Organic food in China is expensive...that is, if you trust that it is truly organic. The common folks, heck even myself, would never be able to afford to eat 100 percent organic on a daily basis. The prices for supposedly organic tomatoes (that are quite a bit more red than they should be, IMO) comes to more than a few bucks for 1 or 2 of the things. An average worker's salary here in DG is about 100 bucks a month...you do the math.

And, Jiangxi is sorta in the middle of nowhere. It is NO DOUBT that they have to meddle with the natural state of the vegetable by adding some kind of perserving agent to it for transport. Logistics in China is less than standard.

Macau is not a province, it's a Special Administrative Region, much like Hong Kong, and it's TINY (I think it's smaller than Manhattan, or at least feels like it).

Not being able to look at wikipedia from here, I am just assuming it says it has the second longest life expectancy anywhere. It's not very representative though, given the tiny pool of people.

MarshalN

chart:

A big part of the reason why US is ranked so low (compared with the rest of the developed countries) is because of its rotten health care system -- and the fact that many people simply have no health coverage. In all the countries I've lived in I think the US is easily the one where seeing a doctor is the most difficult. I have also witnessed first hand the horror of a hospital kicking a liver transplant patient out because the HMO account hit the spending limit. Said patient was definitely NOT ready to go, as he was given two packs of BLOOD to be transfused AT HOME. Anyway, this is off topic.

MarshalN

Erm... you're looking at Taiwan (ROC) and not the PRC. China is #77.

Stefan

Oops, you're right! Even worse.

from

Interesting point, but I doubt that it applies to *tea* from Jiangxi, which would be kill-greened on site, right?

/Lew

As the OP I want to thank everyone for their very useful replies. Even the OT discussions included information as well as interest.

I do understand that there are environmental toxins, e.g., that come about from rainfall and water, but getting less toxins that may come from fertilizers and pesticides is a positive. Organic produce is not void of toxins, just has less. I am a skeptic. I don't believe everything I hear or read and that includes labeling.

I am not a purist either and many people are more extreme than I am. I do the best I can. A previously ordered Chinese tea shipment is on its way. I will drink and enjoy it.

However, I intend to be more selective in the future. I will ask the vendors many questions hoping in turn that they also will be asking their farmers. If more tea drinkers will ask more questions, there is a possibility that China will hear and act at some time in the future. : )

Why bother about getting fewer toxins? Toxin residues are cumulative in the body and may pose a health risk. Therefore, fewer toxins equal less risk. I would rather not end up with a decrepit body if I can avoid it somehow.

Thanks all, W.