"I also think that mature wines have much more savory tones than young wines, which lean much on fruit, thus making mature wines much friendlier to a varied menu."

Nils and I shared a 94 Yquem over monday lunch. I would not call it savory, despite its maturity. The roebuck fillets that we had in the previous course, maybe those were savory yes.

Mike wrote on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:13:58 +0100:

Possibly, this discussion might be better in alt.usage.english :-) I suspect "tasty" might have been meant when "savory" was used. Yes, to me also, "savory" conveys the impression of a flavorful, non-sweet dish.

Did not mean to be pedantic... :-)

Mature wines are not tastier, they taste different. I did not read the article to see what was meant by savory...

I believe that the usage of savory was in the sense of "not as sweet" and I would agree with that statement. In the case of dry wines, as they lose their primary (fruit-based) character they gain in return tertiary (mushroom, earth, leather) characteristics. In the case of sweet wines, they become less sweet with long age as the glucose becomes esterified with acetic acid, so they too become marginally more savory.

Mark Lipton

Mark, I tend to disagree with your first sentence - having read and re-read the article, I think your assertion that the word "savory" relates somehow to "lack of sweetness" is not in context with the original article.

I tend to think of the word savory (or is that savoury ;-) as being much closer to its more literal meaning - i.e. piquant; aromatic; delicately herbal, and I think that this was what the author was trying to convey - and nothing to do with a lack of apparent sweetness.

But please, can you do me a favour (or is that favor!) - can you take Jean and scoot up to Chicago and go to Alinea and check it out first hand.

It seems very interesting.

Cheers

AB

Milud, I believe that we are in essential agreement. The sense of savory as herbal or aromatic rather than tasty is what I was getting at. Savory flavors are, as a rule, not sweet, so savory can be placed in opposition to sweetness, even though it is not explicitly not sweet.

As for Alinea, we are unlikely to go there as Jean is not taken with playful cuisine a la the molecular gastronomy crowd. (She did indulge me last year for my 50th by going with me to El Celler de Can Roca in Spain, but don't expect another such display of largesse any time soon) However, we have plans to go to Grant Achatz's new restaurant, soon to open: Next, which has a very different ethic.

On a separate note, we are beginning to consider our next sabbatical leave in Spring 2012 and Jean's talking about Univ. of Cantebury! Stay tuned...

Mark Lipton

Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:14:54 -0400:

These are some items in the online Oxford English Dictionary on "savoury" and I guess the word might well be acceptable even in the context of sweet foods but I don't think my personal usage would be applicable to sweets..

A. adj.

1. Pleasing to the taste; appetizing; agreeable. b. Gratifying to the sense of smell; fragrant. Now rare exc. in negative context: cf. unsavoury.
2. fig. a. Pleasant; acceptable.
3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavour.

"Mark Lipton" wrote .....

Now let me see - Spring (to you) is March/April 2012 - right?

This is a sensational time of the year to visit Canterbury (you may remember your very VERY brief to Christchurch)

Only four hours drive through some very beautiful (and almost deserted) country and you are in Central Otago - in Autumn, a host of yellows and golds and lakes and mountains and vineyards!

I promise that most of the earthquake damage will be cleared and repaired (yes, the University was affected) - and the aftershocks may have subsided.

Of course, being a Ca boy, you will feel right at home on shaky grounds.

You do realise that, with a little bit of persuasion, I "might" be available to act as chauffeur for a few days - accustomed as I am to driving on the correct side of the road.

Cheers

AB