Reserve - What Does It Mean?

You are correct. In the USA the term doesn't mean anything specific. Generally it is the wineries better wines that get the reserve label. Columbia Crest recently changed its labeling of their reserve wines to Grand Estate. Possibly because they came out with finer wines with which to use the reserve label with.

Now, am I correct in remembering that in some places, "estate" means that all the wines come from their *own* grapes, and not ones that they have bought from somewhere else? Can't remember which country I read that about...

BTW, how common is that...companies buying grapes from somewhere else?

That is true. Estate I believe means the grapes were grown onsite, at the winery property. The winery may own vineyards elsewhere but they are not estate.

Very common. Many wineries in the USA buy grapes from elsewhere. There are numerous vineyards that do not produce wine. They are growers only. Often a winery will grow some varietals of their own and buy others from elsewhere.

In other countries, the situation varies widely. In most of Europe, the traditional model is the farmer/winemaker, but in France one also has the tradition of the negociant (someone who buys wine or grapes and bottles it under their own label). In New Zealand, it was quite commonplace for wineries to use both their own grapes and purchased grapes. I believe that the same holds true in Oz.

Mark Lipton

I don't think it has any legal meaning in France -- varies between a marketing term and an actual designation of a better cuvée that might be more age-worthy, as you stated.

The one that gets me is "old vines" or "ancient vines" or "antique vines" or why not "distressed vines." No meaning what so ever.

There was a time when in the Rhone you could expect such a designation to mean over 80 year old, more or less. But it seems to have been hijacked by marketing types. How old are Cline's "ancient vines" anyway? 30 years? :) Does anyone know?

On the subject of grown vs bought grapes: I don't believe there is any legal meaning to "Estate," although I could be wrong. Certainly Jeff's interpretation is logical enough; by why not have it mean "that's what we drink around the estate," analogous to reserve?

As Mark pointed out there is an important difference between negociant (buys the grapes) and eleveur (grows the grapes) in France. Although there are some very fine negociants one finds on average that the eleveur/viticulteur, because of the additional control in the process, produces higher quality. (I know there are exceptions both ways, but that certainly is accepted wisdom).

I remember going to a rather silly vineyard on Cape Cod, with most impressive rows of vines growing out front. When pressed, they admitted that all the fruit came from California! That's a "why bother" if I ever heard of one... :)

-E

At most of the California Wineries that have a reserve I believe you would find the "Free Run Juice" is all they use in reserves. I don't think it is a legal mandate.

IE: BV-Rutherford at $20 bottle or the BV Georges d latour at $100.00 bottle. Pressings vs free run.

Same holds true at Mondavi, Sequioa Grove and others to my knowledge.

Again, not consistent or legally required. Thus a marketing statement for others in California but not for all. Some there indeed is a difference.

Fred Cline started his operation with vineyards (Zin and Mataro/Mourvedre) in the Contra Costa Delta that were pre-Prohibiton. Whether those vines are used in his "Ancient Vines" bottlings, I cannot say (given recent production numbers, I doubt it somewhat).

No, I believe that there *is* a legal requirement for a high percentage of the grapes to come from land that you own (IIRC).

Mark Lipton

Hey Mark,

Indeed. I don't doubt Mr. Cline has access to a venerable vine or two, but how many cases of this do they make? (NB I've found that some of the Cline zins are excellent, some years ago their basic was a slam dunk QPR wine). Also I question from flavour whether the average age is all that high...

Is there some sort of batf site that we can use to find out this stuff, equivalent to the french inao?

-E

Thanks for the link, D. That's pretty much what I was looking for.

According to this, the land that produces the grapes may be separate. Further, Dick Neidich will go to court to battle over the meaning of "controlled." :) I.e. if a winery has a sub-contractor under exclusive agreement and specifies yields, etc, do they "control" it? I bet they do, even though they're still buying grapes...

-E

You assumption would be correct for Estate Bottlings. They are not necessarily at the winery or even owned. Many a winery on their label states Estate bottling but not all are on land that is on or owned by the winery. Controlled could mean contracted land. Often times small family wineries that own land might even place the land in a LLC-(limited liability corporation) and lease to the winery for usage. Therefore NOT the same legal entity. There are tax and liability reason for estate planing that this is sometimes done.

Secondly Estate wine is not the same as reserve bottlings. Again as in previous post its more like the "Free Run Juice" vs pressings at many, but not all wineries.

Fairly sure its like the TCA issue------you can imagine its the and due to the cork even if its not.

"Fairly sure its like the TCA issue------you can imagine its the and due to the cork even if its not. "

You know, I generally like your postings, but your insistence that TCA is not due to cork is so out in left field that I think you're going in the file with UC, Andros, etc.Sure, there are other causes of TCA (witness BV), but that's like saying because Ryan White got AIDS from a transfusion that AIDS isn't related to sex or needle use.

Different people have vastly different sensitivities, and just because you don't encounter TCA in a recognizable form doesn't make it not a problem.

As others have stated, Reserve has no legal meaning in US. AFAIK, K-J has nothing below the Vintners Reserve. Obviously Riserva in Tuscany (Chianti and Brunello) and Reserva in Rioja have legal meaning. Are there legal requirements for Riserva in Piedmont?

Dale, I am not surprised.

I agree that there are different sensitivities to TCA but the contamination is not just from Cork. It is also not going away just because of screwcaps.

I have recently bought whites with screwcaps that were nice. Reds age differently.

The Reserve/Estate bottling issue is not the same in USA.

But Reserve I am stating is mostly "free run juice" vs crushed which usually exhibits much less complexity.

To that point some people might not notice the difference with BV-Napa or rutherford vs BV Georges which is the free run juice. Usually at 5x the price.

Thus like TCA to some that do or don't notice---Free run juice is vastly different and therefore many wineries in California refer to that at the Reserve.

Hope that clarifies.

You analogy to Aid is interesting.

Assuming that Aids is a Virus and not bacterial, I will assume you get aids from catching a virus. In a dentist chair if the dentist does not clean his equipment.

You are arguing my point to the extent that I don't disagree that you can get Aids from Sex and from needles. You can also get it from saliva, from dental equipment if not properly cleaned.

TCA exists in Cork, it also finds its way into barrel rooms and last time I was at Pine Ridge in Napa they were doing some sulpher treatment to the caves. They said they had identified a ritual of cleaning to avoid TCA that gets into wine from caves and barrels. I did not press why...they were working hard to rid problem.

If you concede you can get aids from tranfusions, dentists etc...and not just sex, I can concede that you can have TCA from Corks as well as other delivery systems.

That said the % of wine contaminated from cork TCA issues vs TCA winery issues has not yet been disclosed. My guess is less than 25% is cork. 75% other issues.

Dick, you are indeed (far) out in left field. AIDS is caused by HIV, a virus. It cannot live outside of blood for more than a minute. You could only get AIDS from dental equipment that had blood or s**en on it, and I quite frankly would avoid that dentist for reasons unconnected to AIDS.

Mark Lipton

"Richard Neidich" wrote ......

Dick, you are 100% correct - not all TCA contamination is attributable to cork.

Just 99.9%.

The remaining 0.01% is what you are defending.

I will defend your right to defend your opinion - even if it is totally indefensible.