need help improving quality

probably the kit but ask here...

choose 'kit wine comments' much info there

Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I don't like it very much.....I've been brewing beer for 14 years....We love cabernets....To us, the wine tastes cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation in contact with the skins. With your experience brewing you know a lot of what you need to make good wine. You already know about the influence of yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished beer. Rather than use yeast that comes with the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45 for Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of these tannins during bulk aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on buying some Cabernet Sauvignon grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4 day cold soak (at 40F) before starting fermentation. That step will extract a lot of what the grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good luck.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Excuse the beginner's question, but where would you get Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, fresh and in good condition, if you don't live in California or another wine growing area?

Jim

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I enjoy today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault, but long ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of folks that don't really know what good wine is.

I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging.

Scott

I've made several red wine kits - Cabernet, Valpolicella, and Merlot. They're all fine, and I'm very happy with them. My next kit will be Zinfandel. I live in Maine so fresh grapes are out of the question. I'd have to drive many miles into New York State by Lake Erie to get fresh grapes or juice.

You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.

I don't know what part of Colorado you live in but Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes and there are more vineyards going in all the time.

Just curious, how does the BM45 build body? I know that an increase in glycerol can have the sensory effect of increased body. Is this how BM45 does it?

Where do you live, Jim?

Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one, but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes. In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.

I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.

Pp

I've also been homebrewing beer for years and would like to try my hand at making wine. Would anyone with experience care to suggest some "high end" kits that they have found to be worthwhile? I've noticed some of the kits can get fairly costly, and I also know that cost doesn't always equate into quality. Any experiences are appreciated... (FYI, my wife and I lean more toward the reds - Pinot Noir, Cabernet)

kevin

"I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging."

Scott - I'm not trying to lead amateaur winemakers away from RCW but I suggest going to Winepress.US. Ask about Colorado grapes. There are several Colorado winemakers that post on that forum who seem to know a lot about winemaking from fresh grapes.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Paul E. Lehmann wrote "Just curious, how does the BM45 build body?

Paul - I don't pretend to know how BM45 does what it does. Here's a few exerpts from the literature; "BM45 produces high levels of polysaccharides, resulting in wines with increased mouthfeel" "BM45 has also been used with great success on Bordeaux varieties and helps to minimize vegetative characters" "BM45 has also been used on Chardonnay...to increase mouthfeel"

I can state from experience that Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon that I grow here in the Kansas City area struggle to achieve full ripeness by the time I have to pick them. In the past I have used RC212 , a Wyeast variety, and Prise de Mousse. The last couple of years I've used BM45, along with meticulous removal of all stem material, and the wines are much improved. I've employeed other winemaking techniques but some of the improvement has to be due to the yeast.

BTW - Chardonnay burst forth with first leaves today.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Did you add oak and how much and what kind? Do you like Australian Reds or Californian or French? If you like Australians you may want to add more oak.

This will sound silly but you can concentrate this somewhat by freezing. Fill up a pop bottle mostly full with wine and cap loosely and freeze it; turn it upside down into a container and let it drip until you have just ice left. If that tastes gawd awful try adding some of it to one of your bottles in increments and see what happens. I don't do kits so can't speak to them but it's one way you might get more out of this.

3 months is very young on a red; mine are awful the first year. Time helps reds.

I guess I'm going to have to look at Winepress US, I am an old dog...

Joe

Scott -

Hmmm. I think an honest answer to your question (about red wines) would be a "maybe." For white wines, I think I could say "yes" with a clear conscience, unless you are used to drinking $50 bottles of white burgundy. For reds, though, it's a bit harder. There are some really good red kits out there. If you are looking for a big, tannic Cab, I don't think you are going to find anything satisfactory in the VR line. I do like some of the VR reds -- I've made the Chianti four or five times, and am always running out. Everybody likes it; it's very pleasant to have with food, but it's not what you're looking for.

In the WinExpert kits, your best bet is probably the Woodbridge Ranch

11 Cabernet Sauvignon kit. Plan to age it for a year or longer, though. WE does not have any "grape pack" Cab kits at this time; the "grape pack" kits (WE calls theirs "Crushendo") generally get the best reviews among reds. You might check out the several WE Crushendo kits that are available, to see if any of them appeal to you. I've done a couple of them so far, and have been pretty impressed. Alternatively, if you are looking for something with a lot of tannins, I believe I've seen comments from Tim Vandergrift of WE that the Italian Montepulciano (in the Selection International line) is about their most tannic kit, so you might consider that one. Again, plan to age it for a year. One more possibility you might consider is the April WE Limited Edition red kit - a blend of Cab and Tempranillo from Spain. The Limited Edition kits are "one-time" deals, but are usually quite good. If you check around in the next few days, you should be able to find retailers that still have some of this one available - it will be arriving at US retailers over the next week or two, I think. I did the LE Petit Verdot kit two years ago, and it is now really impressive.

If you are interested in fresh grapes in the fall, there may well be sources for those. There is a winemaker who posts under the name of Yogi on winepress.us -- I believe he is in Colorado, and is a member of a good-sized group that brings several tons of grapes every fall. He might be a good source. I live in Minnesota, where you might think fresh wine grapes would be about impossible to find -- but not so, there is a gentleman in St Paul that brings in a truck-load every fall. It may take some research, but I think you'll be surprised at what's available, if you check around.

The other possibility is to order some pails of frozen crushed red grapes from Brehm Vineyards. They are premium grapes from some of the best vineyards in Napa, Sonoma, etc., and the prices reflect that. You are making wine essentially from grapes, not a kit, so there is a bit more work involved. But with Brehm grapes, you can definitely make wine that will compare favorably with commercial reds up to, say, $20 or $30 per bottle, at least. I won't say it's easy, but it is possible. On the other hand, you can expect to invest anywhere from $6 to $10 per bottle in raw materials, and it is nowhere near as "fool- proof" as kits are, these days.

Sorry for the long post. I guess it really depends on what you are used to drinking, and how much you are willing to spend on a kit (or fresh grapes). For most of us, the answer is "yes", so I'd encourage you not to give up quite yet.

Doug

Here in the frozen north grapes are non-existant.

But I have made some very fine whines using 5 gal. pails of fresh juice that one of the biggest grocery chains stock.

I really like red's but can't drink very much, I dislike whites, but have been making a Zinfandel Blush that is outstanding.

But I rack once more after it has cleared in secondary and bulk age for as long as I can, usually not less than 4 mos. before bottling. and I would expect reds to take longer, and whites less time.

cheers

What is the advantage to bulk aging? Better still, what are the pros and cons? Anybody?

[snip]

That may be true, but my wife and I drink about a case per month of store bought wine and we're very selective. It could simply be my selection of the kit that we don't like. Plus, when we lived in San Diego there were tons of people that loved Two Buck Chuck. Blech! I'm not saying you like cheap wine, but when I first investigated this I explained that my wife and I drink wine in the $12 to $20/bottle range. So I'm curious what may have gone wrong with my first kit I made. Maybe all that was wrong was my expectation.

I guess that's possible. I didn't add too much though. Maybe a cup or so. Is that normal or a lot?

Scott

We're in Colorado Springs. That might be OK for a road trip during the summer. Thanks for the suggestion.

Scott

That's a great suggestion. I order my kits online though, so I don't really have the opportunity to sample. There is one place that sells the kits locally. I visited the store since it's primarily a homebrew store which is my real passion. The storage practices appauled me and the owner was extremely arrogant so I made the decision that I can't support it and will order online or drive to Denver. Hmm... maybe that's what I'll do is hit up the local places in Denver and sample.

I will take note that Vintner's Reserve is basic. That could simply be it right there. So far it seems like the general direction is to buy a better (or different) yeast, sample the kit before buying, and buy a better juice kit.

I'm not sure i understand your point. Are you saying I should let the wine age 2-3 years and try at that interval?

Scott