Potassium sorbate and Brew King kits and Wine Maker Mag

Thats true for any wine that is finished dry. If your wine has an "F" pack (thats Brew Kings juice) that's added after fermentation you MUST use the sorbate. The only other way to sweeten a wine and not use sorbate is to sterile filter to .045 microns to ensure no viable yeast is around to start munching on the sugar you just dumped in!

I just started a Brew King Vieux Chateau Du Roi and have heard you can leave out the potassium sorbate. What would be the advantages or disadvantages of leaving it out?

Also, Anyone know what the Vieux Chateau Du Roi is? I am told it is a blend of red wines, but Brew King will not tell me what and how much.

Potassium sorbate isn't necessary if you ferment your wine to dryness. The advantage of leaving it out is you don't have to add any other chemicals to your wine. Potassium sorbate supposedly adds a bit of a flavour change to your wine.... But you use it only if you're making a sweeter or semi-sweet wine. If you have a brew king with an F-pack, you need to add the potassium sorbate to prevent it from fermenting in the bottle. It's not fun cleaning up wine spooge from the floor!

Rick

Sounds good. I brewed a Reisling, no F pack. What's the diff between sorbate and sulfite? Doesn't the sulfite kill yeast? What's the purpose of the two?

Ah yes, good old proprietary info.

VCR is the Canadian kit companies name for the French Chateauneuf du Pape, which is itself a blend of ?????

Here is a quote from

"None of these regions takes things quite as far as Chteauneuf-du-Pape, where no fewer than 13 varieties are permitted in a single red wine".

I wonder how many varieties are in the typical VCR kit.

Steve

I happen to agree with the author of the referenced article -- in so far as the opinion that our North American producers could probably produce better results with blends as opposed to producing mainly single-varietal wines. The challenge is probably in the marketing, where the majority of target consumers might regard a blend with suspicion, as though it was done to cover up flaws or shortcomings.

I believe I've read in a few places that the Chateauneuf du Pape wines are often primarily Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvedre. I believe the quoted article may be wrong though -- a book I have says that *only* thirteen varieties are allowed to be grown in that appellation, so I think the Guardian author should have said "as many as 13" instead of "no fewer than 13". I'm fairly certain that most Ch.du Pape wines don't have that many. Most of the others listed in my book are far lesser known varieties (Cinsault, Muscardin, Counoise, Clairette, Bourboulenc) so one could imagine that Brew King doesn't have any of these in its blend. And they can pretty much include whatever they want, since the VCdR is a CdP "style" and by no means adhering to the same blending criteria let alone grape must sourced from the CdP appellation. I would guess that they're getting Grenache and Syrah from the central CA valley, as both are quite readily available and inexpensive. Not Mourvedre though, and perhaps instead they're using something like Ruby Cab (as I did this year in my own "Rhone style" blend), Petite Sirah, or some other variety that's darker and more tannic.

FWIW, the Vintner's Reserver VCdR kit that I did ("overstrength" at

19l and fermented with Red Star Pasteur Red yeast) turned out to be a *very* enjoyable wine. I intended it only as a "quick drinker" to hold us over while our premium kits aged, but I think it turned out better than the Luna Rossa and the North Coast Pinot Noir (albeit the latter is a completely different style so any comparisons are somewhat sketchy). I highly recommend using Pasteur Red with a VCdR kit, as it seems to give really nice floral notes that complement that style -- especially if you intend to drink much of it earlier than 18 months.

Cheers, Richard

My kit does not have a F-pack and is fermented to dryness. Why does the kit have potassium sorbate and why do they want me to use it? It tells me to add the potassium sorbate, potassium metabisulphate and chitosan after the fermentation is done. What about the other ingredients?

disadvantages

The metabisulphate is an anti-oxidant at this stage, without it your wine will have a very short shelf life. With fruit (ie non kits)sulphates are used to "stun" wild yeasts prior to introducing the wine yeasts to the must. So SO2 (the elemental name) really has two purposes. Also some use it in a weaker solution as a sanatizing agent as well.

Chitosan is one of many possible clairifying agents used to help clear wines. Also not needed if you have patience.

Bentonite used to clarify wine and as a protein stabilizer for white wines, not needed at all for reds.

As to why BK and other kit makers include stuff you don't need... I call it the FedEx syndrome. "I want it NOW!" They do this so that you could have something drinkable in 30 days. I suggest for your first few kits you follow the directions to the letter, they do know what they are doing. Spend a lot of time on this group, read and ask any questions you would like. Visit Jacks site and Lums too

you will find some good stuff there!

Then when you get adventurous make some changes, the biggest one you can make is time......... Let some of that wine age, try in in 6 months, 1 year

2 years and you'll see some distinct improvements.

Have fun!

That doesn't make sense. Potassium sorbate is used to prevent renewed fermentation (it actually stops yeast growth, but that's just being picky) in wines with residual sugar, so I don't see what that has to do with sanitation. Are you sure they didn't say you could leave out the potassium metabisulfite? That would make more sense to me. People with sulfite allergies can and do make wine with no SO2 in the wine, but they must be scrupulous about their cleaning and sanitizing regimen.

Brian

I use both bentonite and chitosan in my wine kits and they turn out great. If I use patients and let them clear on their own without using these, how much better will they be?

Brian: here's the paragraph.

*Sorbate Most kits contain potassium sorbate. Manufacturers use this preservative to guarantee the success of their kits in a variety of sanitary conditions. Sorbate prevents the growth of spoilage organisms, which could alter the flavor and aroma of the wine as time passes. As an advanced winemaker, your sanitation should be good enough to ensure that no spoilage organisms would invade your wine. So, you have the option of leaving it out. Sorbate has a subtle, although definite sweetish taste. By leaving the sorbate out of the kit, we can improve the varietal character and finish.

Anyway, I believe that if I DON'T have to put it in I won't. So to me, what everyone here says is that if I'm fermenting dry, which this kit seems to be, I can leave out the sorbate. I plan on doing that here. I will age it in the carboy for about 90 days until I bottle.

Kevin, Sorbate is used to prevent yeast from multiplying. In normal amounts it usually cannot be detected in the taste by most people. In greater amounts I find it offensive. There has been some misinformation in regards to Sorbate- mainly that it will "stop" fermentation, when rather it should be said that it will "inhibit" fermentation. What I mean is that if you have a wine at say 1. 012 sg and you add the Sorbate hoping to stop the sugar consumption at 1.012 it will NOT happen. What likely will happen is the colony of yeast that are alive will finish their lifespan, and not reproduce. That is the purpose of Sorbate. In a dry wine it is absolutely not necessary. Where it is often used in kits I believe is to make the kits more "foolproof" so that if their is a certain amount of sugar remaining in the wine due to an incomplete fermentation, the Sorbate will be insurance against a mild refermentation that will at the least throw a sediment in the bottle, and possibly carbonate or explode bottles. I have no idea what spoilage organisms that the manufactures are alluding to that Sorbate is supposed to prevent the growth of. The first half of their explanation sounded like Potassium Metabisulphite, right up until they mention of the sweetish taste which definitely is a Sorbate trait. Incidentally- of all the chemicals that you may choose not to add, I would not skip the Potassium Metabisulphite additions. HTH John Dixon "

Sulfite inhibits bacteria such as lactobacter & acetobacter, but only does this if the levels of free sulfite are appropriate to the pH of the wine. It really has no effect on the yeast. Sorbate inhibits yeast budding, or growth, but does nothing to stop bacteria. If you use sorbate and no sulfite, and if lactobacter starts up, you will have unpleasant flavours develop. So if you use sorbate, also use sulfite at the appropriate levels.

Steve

I've read that you can become sensitive to the taste once you know what it is and start being able to detect it at lower and lower concentrations. Many people do not like that slight taste that it imparts.

If your finishing your wine dry then you don't need it. Give your wine an extra week or four after you think fermentation is done. Don't open it or mess with it to let oxygen in since you probably have a bit of an air space in it. Walk away and forget it. Then come back and pick up in the instructions where you left off but skip the sorbate.

Don