If the only reason was financial, then yes, logic does dictate that. Of course *all* pubs would have to do this in order to benefit the licencees.
CAMRA themselves have stated very often that no increase in drinking was brought about by relaxation (meaning increase) of opening hours.
Well who could disbelieve an in depth survey like yours!:-)
You (and CAMRA) cannot have it both ways. Extending opening times has been stated many times to have neither increased drinking nor drunkenness. As people have a limited amount to spend on alcohol then then limited amount will be merely spread over longer opening hours. As far as drinking in Scotland is concerned, and despite the winning of BOTY for the last two years by Scottish breweries (albeit an English brewer) Scotland is still very much a beer desert compared to England. And I speak as an ex-pat with many years of living part of each year in Scotland. As far as extra hours are concerned, many many pubs now open well after official hours. No doubt you would have us believe that it isn't for the money, it's because the licencees don't like sleeping:-)
Even worse than that in some pubs, where the dreaded autovax (???) slops it over the barmaid's hands after she's finished wiping out the ash trays to return it to your pint. Why are these abominations legal? Not the barmaids, they're all right. No, it's the blarsted recyclers of hand cleaning fluid that want scrapping.
They do in the pubs I go to (the glasses are lined).
Not many, granted, but I make sure I go back to the ones that do. They're usually run by people with an interest in real ale and who know how to keep it properly. Example: Ship and Mitre, Dale St, Liverpool.
I knew that I had seen that CAMRA wanted LONGER opening hours somewhere. Here's a quote from their website, and note the use of the word "extend";
Mike Benner, Head of Campaigns, said "After years of campaigning we're only one step away from dumping Britain's archaic licensing laws and moving to a more flexible system. Pubs will soon find it easier to extend their opening hours to meet the needs of their customers."
CAMRA is actively supporting a law that will close pubs! Customers don't "need" longer opening hours. The government does "need" to lower costs to the health service and police as well as supporting its buddies in the mega-pub-co's. CAMRA just defies belief yet again.
They're illegal in Scotland, a country which is often more advanced in legal matters than England. Regrettably they're legal in england, indeed my local uses them.
The drip trays are over sized with a tube feeding back into the supply line to the pump. The venturi action creates a partial vacuum in the drip tray and sucks the bar maids hand washings neatly up into your pint, adding extra oxygen/froth on the way. :-(((((
Yes. They are providing me with a service (or not), I'm not providing them with a service. I have an alternative - the supermarket, and the choose not to have my custom. Something like a train or bus, where I have no alternative, I have to fit around their times, but a shop I don't. I could change my hours, but it suits me to be around when everyone else is, and then shop at a supermarket, rather than sit in an empty office to use a shop.
I was quite impressed - it struck me as far too sensible! Though I gave up trying to find a dentist and went private last time...
Mostly I lurk in here... I learn a lot from some very informative people.
But recently and right now there seems to be some vitriolic, patronising, and aggressive sounding crap going on. Why? Is it the hot weather? Must admit, I've been trying an ice cold strong lager or chilled real cider recently.
Real Ale ice lollies would be nice!!
I've never been a member of CAMRA, but I remember when CAMRA was a bunch of 'young fogeys' to be ridiculed and who were considered trouble makers by brewers in the early 70's. At the time I was involved in marketing for Watneys (yes, f . . kin' 'Red Barrel').
35 years on and CAMRA has achieved what it set out to do - preserve the selling of real beer in pubs. CAMRA statistically has been the most successful and sustained consumer campaign in world history. Now, it seems they're a bunch of 'old fogeys' to be ridiculed.
This is despite the best efforts of the brewers right throughout the 80's and 90's to increase their own profitability by relentlessly pushing lager, lager, lager. People drinking foreign looking lager bottles with labels as fashion accessories... The brewers making a fortune...
Against the billions of ad' spend, UK styles of real ale have survived and others been revived. There seems to be a greater choice and better quality than ever before to entice yet another younger generation of drinkers looking for something more interesting tastewise.
Political correctness and fascism about beer styles have no place in my life. If people want to drink other types of beer, that's OK with me. I happen to like Guinness too. In fact, I'll drink it constantly and never get a hangover. But with real ale, the fun is in trying new things and enjoying the familiar favourite.
As quality and taste take over as aspirations from quantity and drunkenness, so fine beer, wine and food including real ale is something to experiment with and try... It's just part of growing up and setting sights higher. Long may it continue.
Back to lurkdom... And out for a few pints of Old Todger.
Not surprising with the billions spent on lager advertising and promotion over the last 20 years. Lager is more profitable and there is comparatively and virtually no wastage, no real cellerman knowledge required and few changeovers.
People are so easily conned. The youngsters are fodder for the marketing men - drinking Bud' brewed in the UK under licence - but they're still buying into a Bud' US culture thing. Virtually all the big lager brews are brewed here now.
Some people actually like cold and bland consistency. Let them have it. Why worry about... Lager will eventually go out of fashion and then what?
What amazes me is that in very many pubs, real ale still accounts for 25% volume (summer) to 35% (winter) of total beer sales with no ads or promotion. Despite the bean counters being in charge of everything these days, the brewers can still make great beer we want to drink.
That is how *I* define success. Product without ad' budgets which essentially sells itself by association; word of mouth, customer curiosity and taste satisfaction.
Much of the beer that has now gone was not great. People's drinking habits have changed and the young mostly want lager. Size of market is not so important in this regard. I'd rather see more small quality breweries thriving than huge conglomerates turning out bland real ale.
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:49:05 +0100, Chris Rockcliffe wrote (in message ):
This kind of superior 'people are so stupid, being conned, falling for marketing' kind of attitude IMO can really put people off real ale. Have you thought that maybe many real ale drinkers are falling for image? - Tradition, Victorian pubbery, golden era, conspiracy theories, real ale the drink of the good honest working salt of the earth man, the myth that in the days before keg everyone was drinking really good real ale in 'traditional pubs'.
What do you mean "lager will go out of fashion", what about good lager? It's not all s**te you know.
This is a con *you're* falling for. Real ales have ad bufgets, they don't sell themselves and on the whole a greater proportion of what you pay for a pint of real ale goes on marketing than if you were buying a pint of mass produced lager!
All the advertising in the world can't sell people a product they don't want more than once. People are not stupid - all the time they make decisions about how best to spend their money to meet their wants and needs. You may not agree with or approve of their decisions, but within their terms of reference they may well be sound. I don't think most Bud drinkers give a toss that the beer is licence-brewed in the UK.
Indeed - which may be why lager has grown in popularity. All too often real ale offers "warm inconsistency" which in itself isn't an attractive proposition.
"Standard lager" is already deperately unfashionable. A couple of years ago I sat in a pub and watched about 5 blokes aged around 35-50 come in and all in turn order "a pint of Carling". That's the image bitter had twenty-five years ago.
Thus disproving what you have said above about advertising.
--
formatting link
"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."
You need to be aware that the Pickthalls run a bar specialising in micro brewery products but choose not to stock draught RA...
...consequently CAMRA won't give them the wholehearted support they believe they deserve...
...consequently they spend a great deal of time shouting abuse about CAMRA and anyone that agrees with CAMRA.
The interesting point is: AFAIK CAMRA and its supporters never said a bad thing about them till *they* started the abuse! (Although they apparently think asking why they don't sell draught RA counts as abuse)
They really are sad little people in a strange fantasy world of their own where normal economics don't apply and destroying 95% of the industry is the solution to every problem.
They remain the only people I've killfiled because their minds are closed, debate is wasted on them. Even B*&l F**t^ ain't killfiled... ;)
Hi Steve, Maybe it's true for some - not me. True, the ordinary young working man in the past was more discerning about his beer than now.
Landlords had to work a lot harder at their cellars. Huge wooden barrels were a bastard to settle and move. (As a kid I used to watch them lowering the big wooden barrels from the dray lorry on ropes to the cellar. Labour costs were less, transport and fuel costs were actually higher and hygiene wasn't always that good.
I'm interested in taste and/or bite and flavour and/or bitterness and/or maltiness. That's why I want 'real ale'. As a straight thirst quencher, Caffreys say is quite good, but I couldn't drink more than a glass of it.
I never said it was nor implied it - I was talking about marketing trends and changes in the beer market which were and are planned for the profit margins of the brewer.
A cool lager is good on a hot day. Some Czech, Belgian, German and Dutch beers are indeed very good indeed. 20 years ago I think I tried every beer that was going in a can or bottle from all over the world.
Carling is the biggest seller in my local - they sell 70 gallons a week of that alone followed by Stella (known here as wife-beater) and Grolsch. It doesn't appeal as much to me though.
Lager has became fashionable over the last 30 years and it probably won't last forever. 100 years ago it was porters and dark milds that were all the rage. What will the trendy alcoholic drink for youngsters be in 2040?
Where's this marketing then? I'm damned if I ever see it. TV Commercials, big posters, magazines, promotions - where are the real ales in that lot - where is the mega million spend of Anhauser Busch's?), Guinness, Interbrew, Carlsberg et al?
But if I drank most big brand lagers as a main drink, I can't tell much difference between the draught and the bottle or can. I might as well buy it bulk at the bloody supermarket and drink at home straight from the fridge for a third of the cost.
People aren't being brain washed into drinking real draught ale - they're drinking it simply because it tastes good, it tastes interesting. Real unfiltered cask-conditioned ale cannot easily be replicated at home except if one is having a drinking binge or a party and can buy a suitable cask.
If I want a perfectly conditioned and presented pint of real ale at the right temperature, I really need to go to a good pub for that. Real cask conditioned Bitters and Pale ales are beer and brewing styles which are part of our UK culture and our proud UK brewing tradition. We do brew that style better than anyone else.
A German friend of mine recently toured here and drank a lot of our real ale. When it comes to being pernickety about beer quality, they don't come more anal than the Germans... He thought he'd arrived in beer heaven on this last trip... And he appreciated the difference between our brewing tradition and theirs - and enjoyed both!
Then, when I was over in Bavaria, he got me to try some fantastic beers there too - new taste sensations - different hops, different water, novelty beers and more. Vive la difference!
There's a world of beer to enjoy. Try some good English real ale - be proud of our own superb brewing tradition - you might even like it.
I've been in the advertising game for 30 odd years and I've sold beers, lagers, invented new brands and revived old ones. It's all about image and price. Advertising works and - if it's properly thought out - the more one spends the better it works.
Every dog has its day. Billions went into Carling, Heineken, Castlemaine, Fosters, Budweiser, Grolsch, Carlsberg, Tuborg, Stella, Coors and dozens more - all huge budgets now or at one time or another. The UK is still the biggest non domestic market for many of these brands.
Research showed that there was a need even demand for new style chilled, creamy head filtered keg and nitro beers which offered more 'traditional beer look and feel' and now you have a huge new market of fizzy creamy smooth easy drinking beers. I was working on developing these 15 years ago.
Which UK real cask-conditioned ale has ever been advertised on TV? How many people stopped in the street could even name a real ale brand?
And there's the rub. The small shop can provide a better service/quality than the supermarket, but cannot afford to stay open the hours that a supermarket can, and hence we see the closure of small shops and the growth of the (usually) bland supermarkets. (*) The single licensee can provide a better service/quality than the large suppliers, but cannot afford to stay open the hours that say jdw can, or give the same prices. Logic dictates that some, at least, of the small pubs will go, due to being uneconomical.
(*) I think that Booth's provide an honourable exception to the average.
And your more expensive private dentist, is he/she available in the evenings?
So what is the problem? Your local pub opens 7 days a week up to 11 at night, and if you really need to drink later than 11pm then there are lots of places to do it already. Do you think that the staff in your local want to go home at 2 am because you can't be arsed to go for a drink until
11.30pm? Do you think that they want to be paid less for more cost, risk personal attack, lower the quality of their personal life, not see their children, endanger relationships, etc,etc, etc. All because you want a beer after 11pm. Jeez, how selfish are you!!!!!
You haven't understood any of the threads here at all. Have another look though and you will see that pubs will be forced to stay open. We all manage quite well as it is don't we? Pubs will close down because of these so called reforms.
DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.