Insanity of the wine industry

The compounds you list are sulfides which, according to the chemical formulas you cite, do not contain oxygen. The discussion here is about sulfites, which by definition DO contain oxygen. The characteristics of the two classes of compounds are completely different.

I'm curious about where your figures for sulfide concentrations came from.

Vino To reply, add "x" between letters and numbers of e-mail address.

That there's not uniform agreement among 11 judges is a far cry from "totally inconsistent." You seem to have a gift for hyperbole, "Vincent." Where you get into trouble is in branding the winner the "best" and the loser the "worst" wine. All that we can really say from those results is that the panel on the whole liked one wine more than another. YMMV, as they say on Usenet. However, it *is* quite instructive to look at the correlation constants in the right hand column of the judges' scores. What it shows us is that certain judges' scores (such as Albert de Villaine) were much more in tune with the overall sentiment than others'. Again, if the scoring were truly random, all those correlation constants would be exprected to be zero. Regarding panel tastings, though, your honest winemaker was dead on. Most savvy consumers pay no attention to the gold medals, as most panel tastings devolve to a lower common denominator sort of wine. To repeat my earlier point, if you don't know who it is judging a wine, why should you give their opinion any weight at all?

No controversy there that I can detect. I merely pointed out that your insinuation that acidification is regularly practiced everywhere was inconsistent with reality. Your main point, that claiming to place a CA wine on the basis of its acidity is ludicrous, I agree with. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

Mark Lipton

I wouldnt dispute those numbers but I am curious as to where they came from. I never saw these components broken down like this.

antioxidant and

Mark, I am not disputing anything in that link you posted. Winemakers do not sterilize with S02. The quantity of sulfite that you would need makes it impractical.

USE As an antimicrobial preservative and as an anti-browning agent

It is used to slow the growth of microbial agents. I am not saying that massive amounts of SO2 wont kill bacteria. Large amounts of Coca-Cola will kill bacteria,, but that is not the typical use of sulfites. They are used as a preservative.

Nonsense? why the hostility. I am not feeding you lies. I am trying to share some infomation.

"Vincent Vega" wrote, and I respond thus.......

Wow - "reinforces your speculation - so much that you come to a conclusion" just from reading someone else's 20 year old humorous personal encounter with wine.

So, how many wine snobs have you personally encountered - hundreds? dozens? one?

I only inquire because, despite an interest in things vinous for over

30 years, I can count *on one hand* the number of times I have come across anyone who might fit the description "snob" and usually, far from treating them with contempt, I laughed both at them and with them.

Oh sure, I have come across some pompous asses - but generally, they have possessed an educated palate and vast tasting experience which I respect - and few ever ended up as judges or columnists.

Generally they remain, as I do, an educated enthusiast.

As to your utterances.....

(NOTE - I think the word is "subjectivity" - or is "subjectiveness" an Americanism with which I am unfamiliar?)

What a load of unadulterated crap. I do not know of one person with an uneducated palate who made it onto any judging panel just because they can "talk-the-talk" - and the thought that one persons *thoughts* can "permeate" the entire wine industry is laughable.

However, my experience with the US and Americans is limited to a few hundred really nice people.

You have obviously the talent for unearthing the rotten apples.

I have been fortunate enough to have visited wineries and winemakers in many countries - thus your comments re "mendacious and pretentious" winemakers must only refer to those *you* must mix with in the US - so I shall probably take counsel from people like Mark Lipton before I visit any producers in the US.

Generally, I have found people with pride and passion - exactly what 99.99% of this industry is about.

As to your statement that -

I should really like to know upon what vast experience do you base this?

Some over-ripe grapes from Napa?

A few years ago, when visiting South Africa I was told that while it was illegal to add sugar, it was quite acceptable to adjust acid levels - and I know (from visiting wineries where the winemakers were more than willing to discuss these issues) that the same applies in Australia where, in some regions there is an overabundance of heat causing sugar levels to soar while acid levels decline - but winemaking in cooler climates has the opposite "problem" in that acid levels remain higher than optimum - and that is a simple fact *in much of the winemaking world*

So why would acid be added in countries like Germany or Austria or much of France or New Zealand?

Or is your geographic descriptor "in much of the winemaking world" as limited as your comprehension.

God, I shall never look at a gorgeous floral Riesling from the Mosel, or my favourite Champagne (please note the spelling!) or a young Sauvignon from Marlborough without wondering just how much acid was added by an unscrupulous winemaker.

-- st.helier

Salut/Hi Vincent Vega,

This is my last reply to what I am increasing finding a rancunious and trollish post.

le/on Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:41:47 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

What I don't understand is the _assumptions_ you make about the people here. You're assuming that your knowledge and information is the only truth and that we're a bunch of ignorant peasants whose lives have been blighted by the lack of your postings. (Caricature admittedly, but that's the TONE of what you've been posting)

Well, that's NOT my experience. I have found, for example, that Tom Shudic and I, tasting white (mainly SB) non faulty wines, marked them almost identically, with our assessments of two wines reversed by one point (he gave one 17, and another 16) I gave them 16, and 17 respectively. I've found the same sort of consistance with Markl Lipton and Andrew Bourne, I've found substantially the same thing with Michael Pronay. This is MY experience with a number of other people all of whom post here.

That's what I mean by arrogance. The assumption that we haven't.

The former estate - (Castello di) Poggio alle Mura - at the time bottled just about the worst Brunello I ever had in my life.

M.

OK then. You say SO2 is added to 99.99 percent of all wines, and right you are. (Don't know why this obvious fact could be discussed so controversially here.)

Otoh, you refer people travelling "the wine region in France", which is just about as much a nonsense as saying "bathing at the beach in the US", because there are several wine regions all over France.

Otoh, you say that climatic conditions can lead to the need of acidification just about anywhere in the world. This is *plain wrong*, as in Germany and Austria - and in the champagne region in France - never ever has thought about that. Quite in contrary, in Germany high levels of acidity is the usual problem winemakers have to face in just about every except the very best years.

M.

No,, I never said that. Its unbelievable,, you people must all share one mind. Someone shows up that has diversity of opinion and you distort my words and slander me. Let me guess,, you are all left-wing socialist liberals also?

This is *plain

The same reason as it is used in much of the rest of the world. The trend today is to overwrippen grapes inorder to get big complex high alcohol wines. As the brix raises the TA is reduced along with that the PH increases. If you are drinking a wine above 13% alcohol, than that grape was harvested at about 24-26 brix. A grape at this high of a sugar content would taste flat from lack of acidity and PH would make the wine unstable. Climate doesnt have much to do with it. Its simple chemestry/biology.

In some locations acidity is naturally high because ripeness doesnt complete. In this case no acid is added but sugar would have to be added to increase the alcohol content. (oh yeah,, this is illegal too, and nobodydoes this either). Well you cant have your cake and eat it too. Either the fruit is under ripe and high in acid or it is rippend and acid is added.

But dont take my word for it. Im simply a winemaker whose patience has run out for "the wine experts".

I'd have to give that dubious distinction to the 1981 Biondi Santi. After shelling out $40 US for it, and patiently cellaring it for about ten years a friend and I shared a bottle. Simply awful - and not IMO an off bottle. It wasn't corked.

Tom S

"Vincent Vega" wrote in news:Qvxcc.2584$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrdny01.gnilink.net:

Austria or

world. The

complex high

with that

alcohol, than

this high of

PH would

it. Its

ripeness doesnt

have to be

illegal

cake and

or it is

patience

Look , First of all you walk into the room screaming "you are all a bunch of phonies!" Ok we are now go away.

Or, have meaningful dialogue. SO2 gets added. there are areas where acids are added and there are areas where sugar is added. These things are not outlawed uniformly throughout the world. but what is your point? The folks who post here come from around the world and represent a wide variety of taste and experience. Some like wines tlike the $7 pound Rooster, I can't stand it and wouldn't buy it a $2 a bottle, does that make me better? probably not. I like the Crozes Hermitage made by the Coop in Tain l'Hermitage but I wouldn't buy their Hermitage. Does that make me snob or a value conscious purchaser.

Some folks regularly report on wines I can only dream of. I value that addition to my life. If ever I should be able to drink wines such as these I will have a better idea of which ones I might like by seeing those "experts" opinions of my favorites.

Is there a company line at AWF? perhaps that Parker isn't God and that many California, though I am discovering not all, wines are over oaked. Is there room for disagreement has been in the past. Is there need for civility? Yes, but walking into the room screaming you are phonies, excuse me implying that we are wine snobs, is not a good way to promote the concept.

A wine snob by my definition is someone who thinks they know much and is unwilling to listen and learn from others like the fellow running a tasting stand who smiled and said "as you wish" when I commented on the parentage of Cabernet Sauvignon. He somehow thought that when I indicated a cross that I was implying a mixture of SB and Cab Franc. I might be wrong about things but I am willing to learn. I just ask that you offer instruction and not just berate. I try to speak French my Frech friends patiently correct my pronounciation and I learn, my daughter laughs and repeats my errors, I only learn that I did something wrong but cannot correct the error, indeed I become self conscious and repeat the errors.

So what do you like and why?

We all belong to the marxist-leninist wine appreciation wing of the AFW (Anarchist Freethinking Whiners). If you cannot understand the relationship between dialectical materialism and the use of selected yeast cultures, if you see no link between class struggle and acidification, then you are not going to understand what we write.

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

That is my point. I dont understand why you are all attacking me for saying this.

Agreed. People here seem unwilling to listen to what I have to say from personal experience.

Are you asking what types of wines do I like?