I wish that CAMRA would make up its mind

An anonymous troll posted :-

1. Should read 'More flexible opening hours'

Why do you belive that? It's certainly not what happened in Scotland, where some pubs are now open as long as they can be, from early in the morning until late into the night, but others keep to more traditional opening hours.

And also equates to the buying power which supermarkets have. You won't find (AFAIK) any landlord in Britain paying as little as

60p/pint for Stella, and tied houses will pay considerably more. Not that it's got anything to do with real ale anyway! FWIW Morrisons supermarkets boast that they make only 1% on average net profit per item. Doesn't sound much, until you then find out that they're turning over their whole stock (in effect) every few days, and suddenly it dawns that they're making very large% per ANNUM. Try to find a pub where the whole stock is turned over every few days, with a large stock/staff ratio!:-)

Indeed. And that's why 6 pubs/week close in this country. People would rather drink cans of stella at home with a takeaway than go to their local. Until the local shuts, when the bleating can be heard for miles. We all know how cheap beer in supermarkets abroad is, and we know what we pay in bars abroad. Compare the profit margin abroad with that at home and you can see that the average British pub carries, generally, a much smaller profit margin than bars abroad do.

Indeed. Why only yesterday I went to my bank at 6.00 p.m. the building society at

6.30 p.m. and the butchers bakers and candlestick makers at between 8.00 p.m. and 9.00 p.m. They were all doing a roaring trade, as were the local indoor and outdoor markets. I finished off by seeing my dentist and doctor between 10.00 and 11.00 p.m. Health being more important than real ale, they were of course open and wishing to see me. Meanwhile... In the real world...

And yet the bleating of the public when a pub closes is very raucous. The public seem to believe that the landlord owes them something, but they owe that landlord nothing. Mmmm. Bit one sided perhaps?

Now if CAMRA want to tackle something which IS disgusting, howsabout a ban on those filthy beer recycling devices, the ones which wash the barmaids' hands and then suck the washing liquid back into the drinkers' pints?

For me personally, (1) is the least important.

And (4) would go some way to addressing (1) anyway.

BTN

But they could also choose to open later, or close in the afternoons etc.

I'd like to think that If I worked in the industry my conscience would still tell me that I didn't need to rely on the custom of the alcoholic/tramp/unemployed/drop-out market that only serves to exacerbate social problems.

Frankly I think it's ridiculous that a lot of pubs are now serving alcohol at 10:05 AM, but not 11:05 PM.

Of course, the Winos would get their fix from the local minimart anyway... but higher prices would probably keep them out of the pub at least.

BTN

Did you actually read what I wrote? There is no oigation on the pubs to open lonbger. Not all pubs in Scotland are open all the time that legally can be. Many close early, many open late, some even close in the afternoon. No one is going to force publicans to open when it isn't profitable: if the current opening hours work for you, stick to them.

CAMRA support flexible opening hours.

Did you actually read what I said? Customers, (you remember them .. the great cause that CAMRA protects single handedly) will force pubs to open longer. Our pub, and most others will have to open another couple of hours because drinkers will merely spread the times that they go out... but they wont drink any more.

Nope, you may use the word flexible... the actual result will be LONGER hours.

There is existing evidence, from Scotland, which proves you to be wrong,on both counts. Simple as that.

I've seen it in action in Scotland, and it doesn't. End of argument.

Nope, its the governments fault, backed by CAMRA. I dont know of any part of the trade (that's those of us that do it instead of talking about it) that supports this reform.

Read up... The customer, market, cosumer demand, fear of being left behind. All these things form a compulsion for the industry.

Its not, its beer. That white fluffy stuff is beer. Incidentally, it's very popular and thought of a vital part of a pint in most of the country.

Sorry, are we in Scotland? Is that common practice in Scotland? They do the same in Belgium, and Germany and France. So what? For the sake of the hard of hearing, the current situation is the norm. When were you last told to F off when asking for a top up eh? Hmmm probably quite recently thinking about it. I can imagine it ... "Mine Host, stout yeoman, I am a CAMRA representative with full cognisance of my statutory rights ... and I need... nay DEMAND a top up of this golden brew".

And you have divined that I'm not trade how, exactly?

It's a small amount of beer frothed up with air.

Not noticeably round here; roud here, it's a collar of thin, light lace, not half an inch of shaving foam.

Perhaps I am. Perhaps I'm not; it's still part of the UK.

As I said, it once was, until about 15-20 years ago.

Doesn't make it right. Do you serve short spirit measures?

I honestly can't remember. Perhaps I just go to pubs with polite bar staff? Mind you, in most of the pubs I currently frequent, I don't need to ask for a top-up, as they have well-trained, polite and friendly staff. Do you train your staff to swear at the paying customer?

Actually, I'm not a member of CAMRA.

And also not in large areas of the North and Midlands where the use of oversized glasses was the accepted norm twenty years ago.

--

"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."

And actually, since "all day opening" came in in the late 80s, loads of pubs actually open shorter hours than they used to, with many no longer opening at lunchtimes during the week.

I doubt whether many independently-run pubs will be matching Wetherspoons and opening at 10 am.

--

"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."

Did I say that you weren't? I was talking about CAMRA with the comment about those who talk not do. Back to the original point - can you tell me which part of the indistruyt is backing it?

Well we agree that its beer then. Thats nice.

Ooo you are a man of mystery.. in the trade or not ? in Scotland or not? I cant wait to find out. Back to the original point once again - the reforms do not apply to Scotland. Therefore your comment and subsequent responses are as irrelevant as they were before.

Is it now? No. Therefore anonther Irrelevant point on so many levels.

We serve the legal spirit measure as does the rest of the trade. We serve legal beer measures as does the rest of the trade. Some will flout, that is the way of the world, but the industry does not have a major problem as you suggest. CAMRA wants to change the law, not the industry, or the Government for that matter.

You should always go to pubs with nice people. Thats one of the ways that we become succesful. And did I say that I trained my staff to be rude? Come on, lets see the paropdy and irony when its there purrlees.

Good for you! We agree on something else then eh? My (albeit sarky) quote above is quite common at the bar you know though.

I'm old enough to remember when pubs in Scotland didn't open on Sundays. Now they do, and the evidence is that opening did not cause an increase in drinking, which would seem to back up the research showing that longer hours/increased opening merely results in higher costs for landlords with no increase in income. People as a general rule only spend a certain amount on drinking in public houses, increasing hours will not increase that amount. In any locality with more than one pub if one of those pubs chooses to open at different times in order to increase income (which is the only point of changing or extending hours) then the other will surely follow, if it is intent on maintaining its share of the market. Or do you believe that pubs will nicely share out the hours between them?:-) Pub hours have increased over the years, with the result that the same amount of money (or more probably less) is being spread ever thinner, the end result being 6 pubs/week closing. The ability to alter hours will invariably mean longer hours as pubs struggle ever more to maintain a share of income, the landlords/ladies will have no choice unless they are in a monopoly position.

The abuse that some outlets try to perpetrate is totally wrong. However, I do believe that the current arrangements on the whole work well and everyone knows where they stand. The amount of liquid does have a direct effect on the price, regardless of what some of the other contributors here seem to think. It's either one way or the other.

In message , Alan Perrow wrote

And in the real world... Many people have stopped using banks and building societies that refuse to open when customs need them. I can arrange a standing order, pay a bill, transfer funds at 2pm in the morning - with help from a real person at the other end of a telephone line, if required. I have renewed my car insurance at 11pm on a Sunday. I can go shopping at midnight for meat, bread and candles if I wish. Perhaps your local butcher, baker and candlestick maker isn't open but mine is. I obtain most of my cash from the machine at my local 24 hour petrol station. The health centre I use doesn't operate a 9 to 5 policy. The utility companies now read meters in the evenings etc.

Society is changing and any business that doesn't provide what people want will fail.

I think that was what he was saying. This "reform" will change the way that people spend their leisure time. That in turn will increase costs without increasing revenue. That in turn will close down those businesses that cannot cope. My business will be fine... but I care about those who will struggle. Many pubs are marginal businesses even now. Be prepared to see LOTS of pubs shut their doors for the last time. CAMRA is backing that process.