Which parts of the CAMRA campaign do they want to keep from this list of
conflicting issues. At least one of them has to go surely?
1. Cheaper beer
2. Longer opening hours
3. Higher product quality
4. 100% liquid pints
Why do you belive that? It's certainly not what happened in Scotland,
where some pubs are now open as long as they can be, from early in the
morning until late into the night, but others keep to more traditional
And also equates to the buying power which supermarkets have.
You won't find (AFAIK) any landlord in Britain paying as little as
60p/pint for Stella, and tied houses will pay considerably more.
Not that it's got anything to do with real ale anyway!
FWIW Morrisons supermarkets boast that they make only 1% on average net
profit per item.
Doesn't sound much, until you then find out that they're turning over
their whole stock (in effect) every few days, and suddenly it dawns that
they're making very large% per ANNUM.
Try to find a pub where the whole stock is turned over every few days,
with a large stock/staff ratio!:-)
And that's why 6 pubs/week close in this country.
People would rather drink cans of stella at home with a takeaway than go
to their local.
Until the local shuts, when the bleating can be heard for miles.
We all know how cheap beer in supermarkets abroad is, and we know what we
pay in bars abroad.
Compare the profit margin abroad with that at home and you can see that
the average British pub carries, generally, a much smaller profit margin
than bars abroad do.
Why only yesterday I went to my bank at 6.00 p.m. the building society at
6.30 p.m. and the butchers bakers and candlestick makers at between 8.00
p.m. and 9.00 p.m.
They were all doing a roaring trade, as were the local indoor and outdoor
I finished off by seeing my dentist and doctor between 10.00 and 11.00 p.m.
Health being more important than real ale, they were of course open and
wishing to see me.
In the real world...
And yet the bleating of the public when a pub closes is very raucous.
The public seem to believe that the landlord owes them something, but they
owe that landlord nothing.
Bit one sided perhaps?
Now if CAMRA want to tackle something which IS disgusting, howsabout a ban
on those filthy beer recycling devices, the ones which wash the barmaids'
hands and then suck the washing liquid back into the drinkers' pints?
Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was to ( email@example.com), in message
so1Ya.54473$ firstname.lastname@example.org who said:
For me personally, (1) is the least important.
And (4) would go some way to addressing (1) anyway.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was to ( email@example.com), in message
Ul5Ya.54505$ firstname.lastname@example.org who said:
But they could also choose to open later, or close in the afternoons etc.
I'd like to think that If I worked in the industry my conscience would still
tell me that I didn't need to rely on the custom of the
alcoholic/tramp/unemployed/drop-out market that only serves to exacerbate
Frankly I think it's ridiculous that a lot of pubs are now serving alcohol
at 10:05 AM, but not 11:05 PM.
Of course, the Winos would get their fix from the local minimart anyway...
but higher prices would probably keep them out of the pub at least.
Did you actually read what I wrote? There is no oigation on the pubs
to open lonbger. Not all pubs in Scotland are open all the time that
legally can be. Many close early, many open late, some even close in
the afternoon. No one is going to force publicans to open when it
isn't profitable: if the current opening hours work for you, stick to
CAMRA support flexible opening hours.
This is an old one rolled out by campaigners. The real truth is that a well
run bar that buys large volume at good prices pays more than a supermarket
sells for. in our case we pay £6.14 a gallon for Stella, thats 77p a pint
before any other overhead.
My managers are instructed to mark up at no less than 56% GP. Cask costs
anything from £4.40 to £15+ a gallon. Work it out for yourself.
That's just untrue. Pubs will be forced to open later because customers will
spread their drinking over a longer period for no other reason than they
can. At the moment that doesn't happen, and as a direct result overheads are
lower, and your pint is cheaper than it will be when pubs have to stay open
Do you think that the trade doesnt offer good quality? Why is the consumer
spending on leisure so much higher now than in recent histopry if the offer
is rubbish? What is happening is that the crummy outlets, and that includes
lots of CAMRA favopurite pubs are closing because uite fraqnkly, few people
want a Victorian slum boozer anymore.
I have no problem with charging you more if you want the legislation to have
1pt of liquid plus a head. And what do you think that a head is anyway...
something that's not beer?
To say that less than 1pt liquid is theft is very naive where the current
situation (i.e. pint with head) is the accepted norm and has been FOREVER!
It's merely a CAMRA position to chat about at their meetings, along with
other riviting topics like how to alienate women with patronising
advertising campaings and how best to match socks with sandals.
Did you actually read what I said? Customers, (you remember them .. the
great cause that CAMRA protects single handedly) will force pubs to open
longer. Our pub, and most others will have to open another couple of hours
because drinkers will merely spread the times that they go out... but they
wont drink any more.
Nope, you may use the word flexible... the actual result will be LONGER
Nope, its the governments fault, backed by CAMRA. I dont know of any part of
the trade (that's those of us that do it instead of talking about it) that
supports this reform.
Read up... The customer, market, cosumer demand, fear of being left behind.
All these things form a compulsion for the industry.
Its not, its beer. That white fluffy stuff is beer. Incidentally, it's very
popular and thought of a vital part of a pint in most of the country.
Sorry, are we in Scotland? Is that common practice in Scotland? They do the
same in Belgium, and Germany and France. So what? For the sake of the hard
of hearing, the current situation is the norm. When were you last told to F
off when asking for a top up eh? Hmmm probably quite recently thinking
about it. I can imagine it ... "Mine Host, stout yeoman, I am a CAMRA
representative with full cognisance of my statutory rights ... and I need...
nay DEMAND a top up of this golden brew".
And you have divined that I'm not trade how, exactly?
It's a small amount of beer frothed up with air.
Not noticeably round here; roud here, it's a collar of thin, light
lace, not half an inch of shaving foam.
Perhaps I am. Perhaps I'm not; it's still part of the UK.
As I said, it once was, until about 15-20 years ago.
Doesn't make it right. Do you serve short spirit measures?
I honestly can't remember. Perhaps I just go to pubs with polite bar
staff? Mind you, in most of the pubs I currently frequent, I don't
need to ask for a top-up, as they have well-trained, polite and
friendly staff. Do you train your staff to swear at the paying
Actually, I'm not a member of CAMRA.
And actually, since "all day opening" came in in the late 80s, loads of pubs
actually open shorter hours than they used to, with many no longer opening
at lunchtimes during the week.
I doubt whether many independently-run pubs will be matching Wetherspoons
and opening at 10 am.
"If laws are to be respected, they must be worthy of respect."
Did I say that you weren't? I was talking about CAMRA with the comment about
those who talk not do. Back to the original point - can you tell me which
part of the indistruyt is backing it?
Well we agree that its beer then. Thats nice.
Ooo you are a man of mystery.. in the trade or not ? in Scotland or not? I
cant wait to find out. Back to the original point once again - the reforms
do not apply to Scotland. Therefore your comment and subsequent responses
are as irrelevant as they were before.
Is it now? No. Therefore anonther Irrelevant point on so many levels.
We serve the legal spirit measure as does the rest of the trade. We serve
legal beer measures as does the rest of the trade. Some will flout, that is
the way of the world, but the industry does not have a major problem as you
suggest. CAMRA wants to change the law, not the industry, or the Government
for that matter.
You should always go to pubs with nice people. Thats one of the ways that we
become succesful. And did I say that I trained my staff to be rude? Come on,
lets see the paropdy and irony when its there purrlees.
Good for you! We agree on something else then eh? My (albeit sarky) quote
above is quite common at the bar you know though.
I'm old enough to remember when pubs in Scotland didn't open on Sundays.
Now they do, and the evidence is that opening did not cause an increase in
drinking, which would seem to back up the research showing that longer
hours/increased opening merely results in higher costs for landlords
with no increase in income.
People as a general rule only spend a certain amount on drinking in public
houses, increasing hours will not increase that amount.
In any locality with more than one pub if one of those pubs chooses to
open at different times in order to increase income (which is the only
point of changing or extending hours) then the other will surely follow,
if it is intent on maintaining its share of the market.
Or do you believe that pubs will nicely share out the hours between
Pub hours have increased over the years, with the result that the same
amount of money (or more probably less) is being spread ever thinner, the
end result being 6 pubs/week closing. The ability to alter hours will
invariably mean longer hours as pubs struggle ever more to maintain a
share of income, the landlords/ladies will have no choice unless they are
in a monopoly position.
The abuse that some outlets try to perpetrate is totally wrong. However, I
do believe that the current arrangements on the whole work well and everyone
knows where they stand. The amount of liquid does have a direct effect on
the price, regardless of what some of the other contributors here seem to
think. It's either one way or the other.
In message , Alan Perrow
And in the real world... Many people have stopped using banks and
building societies that refuse to open when customs need them. I can
arrange a standing order, pay a bill, transfer funds at 2pm in the
morning - with help from a real person at the other end of a telephone
line, if required. I have renewed my car insurance at 11pm on a Sunday.
I can go shopping at midnight for meat, bread and candles if I wish.
Perhaps your local butcher, baker and candlestick maker isn't open but
mine is. I obtain most of my cash from the machine at my local 24 hour
petrol station. The health centre I use doesn't operate a 9 to 5 policy.
The utility companies now read meters in the evenings etc.
Society is changing and any business that doesn't provide what people
want will fail.
I think that was what he was saying. This "reform" will change the way that
people spend their leisure time. That in turn will increase costs without
increasing revenue. That in turn will close down those businesses that
cannot cope. My business will be fine... but I care about those who will
struggle. Many pubs are marginal businesses even now. Be prepared to see
LOTS of pubs shut their doors for the last time. CAMRA is backing that