Darjeeling question?


The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea. Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green tea to me. Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.
Reply to
bloehard
bloehard writes: > The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the > purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was > much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea. > Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut > like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the > darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green > tea to me. > Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking > to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.
Based on what you tried and how it tasted to you, I think you should stay away from Darjeelings for a while. Your taste may change, so don't give up on them forever.
/Lew --- Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
formatting link
--
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Reply to
Lewis Perin
Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green". -- Aloke ---- to reply by e-mail remove 123 and change invalid to com > The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the > purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was > much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea. > Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut > like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the > darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green > tea to me. > Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking > to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.
--
Aloke
Reply to
Aloke Prasad
Lewis Perinpc7r74ab9jj.fsf@panix1.panix.com4/6/06 18:53perin@panix.com > bloehard writes: > >> The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the >> purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was >> much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea. >> Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut >> like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the >> darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green >> tea to me. >> Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking >> to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types. > > Based on what you tried and how it tasted to you, I think you should > stay away from Darjeelings for a while. Your taste may change, so > don't give up on them forever.
Lew, I'm not sure I agree with you here; I think Mr. bloehard should experiment by roasting and further oxidizing some Darjeeling samples to see if he can get them more to his liking.
Roasting entails putting the dry leaves in a wok and bouncing them around awhile as they heat, never letting them scorch, and using the nose to tell when the leaves have had enough. I recommend overdoing this, and then pulling back iin later trials.
Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or elsewhere recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly dry, environment might do it. This would take some experimentation to get right, I suspect.
Modern Darjeeling is greener than old style Darjeeling, but, unlike the case of Oolongs, only the former seems available to us today. (He could of course jump in his way-back machine and find the old style, or he could visit an Indian grocery shop and pick up something wrapped in paper off the shelf. I found one a year ago, wrapped in paper printed with the year 1996 (or 1990 something). Gotta be sufficiently oxidized, and then some, eh?
Michael
Reply to
Michael Plant
> The only Darjeeling that I have had and known it was Twinings in the > purple can. I don't know if anyone else has had this one, but it was > much too green tasting for me and I am looking for more of a red tea. > Are most Darjeelings like this (kinda green) or does it run the gamut > like oolong? I have had all types of oolong, but similarly I like the > darker ones and not the Taiwanese anes that really taste like a green > tea to me. > Anyone have darker Darjeeling or oolong recommendations? I am looking > to try fine black teas, but do not want any half green types.
Upton currently has one Darjeeling still made in the older style: TD75 (Tongsong Dtriah Estate FTGFOP Second Flush (DJ-291)). But the trend in Darjeeling is to a oolong style for second flush and a green style for first flush. Personally, I'm all for it - If I want strong black tea I'll drink Nilgiri or Assam. But to each his own. I've not tried the tea above, but I have had others from Upton made in the older style and they were good. I just prefer the modern styles.
Regards, Dean
Reply to
DPM
> Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or elsewhere > recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly dry, environment might > do it.
This re-raises the question of what is meant in the tea world by the terms *oxidation* and *fermentation*. The latter is generally considered to be a biochemical process, requiring enzymes, which may be present as live organisms (as in wine production) or their residues (as in brewing beer or whiskey mash). I would have thought that such enzymes are unlikely to survive later stages of tea treatment, though someone else here (Nigel?) might know.
That leaves plain old autoxidation, a slow process at room temperature. Though people do go on about aged oolongs, I'm inclined to suspect that it's the repeated roasting rather than slow oxidation that does whatever that magic may be. Certainly a lot of the desirable notes in many teas are embodied in relatively fragile molecules that won't survive repeated roasting or long storage in air.
So - I don't doubt that green Darjeelings can be moved over to another, less-astringent taste regime. But I think it would be hard to get that old-style oolongsome effect outside of the initial process.
I miss the old Darjeeling style as well. Can anyone recommend specific (and readily available) offerings to add to Dean's list?
-DM
Reply to
DogMa
>Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or >Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to >Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green".
Is it my imagination, or have Darjeelings, on the average, been getting greener and greener in the past twenty years or so?
I do much prefer a more strongly fermented Darjeeling, but they seem to be increasingly hard to find. --scott
-- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
--
"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Reply to
Scott Dorsey
DogMa writes: > > Further, oxidizing (fermenting, if you like) was discussed here or > > elsewhere recently. Exposure to air in a clean, but not overly > > dry, environment might do it. > > This re-raises the question of what is meant in the tea world by the > terms *oxidation* and *fermentation*. The latter is generally > considered to be a biochemical process, requiring enzymes, which may > be present as live organisms (as in wine production) or their residues > (as in brewing beer or whiskey mash). I would have thought that such > enzymes are unlikely to survive later stages of tea treatment, though > someone else here (Nigel?) might know. From what I've gleaned, the oxidation that takes place during tea manufacture, e.g. in blacks and oolongs, the process that gives them a different taste and mouth feel - not to mention aroma - from greens, is oxidation of *polyphenols*. And this oxidation is catalyzed by *enzymes* in the leaves known as polyphenol oxidases. These enzymes, from what I've gathered, are destroyed in the application of high heat (fixation) during tea manufacture. I'm not a chemist, so I welcome correction or refinement of this sketch. > That leaves plain old autoxidation, a slow process at room > temperature. Though people do go on about aged oolongs, I'm inclined > to suspect that it's the repeated roasting rather than slow > oxidation that does whatever that magic may be. Certainly a lot of > the desirable notes in many teas are embodied in relatively fragile > molecules that won't survive repeated roasting or long storage in > air. All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's being oxidized post fixation. If it isn't polyphenols, then its oxidation won't give the leaves more black/oolong character, presumably. > So - I don't doubt that green Darjeelings can be moved over to > another, less-astringent taste regime. But I think it would be hard to > get that old-style oolongsome effect outside of the initial process.
Obviously we agree.
/Lew --- Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
formatting link
--
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Reply to
Lewis Perin
> I would have thought that such enzymes are unlikely to survive later stag= es of tea treatment, though someone else here (Nigel?) might know. Sorry I=B4m not Nigel but no active enzyme makes it through some decent firing. Anyway, among those several 100s of known biochemical reactions during tea processing there are at least some that are not dependent on enzymes at all. For example the oxidation of theaflavins into thearubigins and so on. However, among all those components that make up the characteristic aroma/flavors of a specific tea those volatile constituents are as their name implies very sensitive to overfiring, read later roasting. > Though people do go on about aged oolongs, I'm inclined to suspect that i= t's the repeated roasting rather than slow oxidation that does whatever tha= t magic may be. While repeated roasting works fine with some Oolongs (thick leaves) it=B4s not the method of choice in the treatment of Darjeelings (relatively greater surface area, substantial loss of volatile compounds). > So - I don't doubt that green Darjeelings can be moved over to another No problem as long as they=B4re fresh, later on I doubt that any manipulation results in something more enjoyable than left untouched, with maybe one exception, the drying of moist teas. > I miss the old Darjeeling style as well. Can anyone recommend specific (a= nd readily available) offerings to add to Dean's list?
I sampled some heavily oxidised DJs in 2005, but mostly 2nds (pitchblack Avongrove FTGFOP1) and Autumnals (most), but the first flushes are mostly greens [color not so much in the way of taste] these days. As posted before (?) I asked some guys in the beezness (managers, vendors) why this is so and got the reply that this is what customers want. Period (for them).
Happy discovering, Karsten [celebrating the rebirth of my schnotz with some lovely gongfued TieKuanYin]
Reply to
psyflake
> All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's be= ing oxidized post fixation. If it isn't polyphenols, then its oxidation won't give the leaves more black/oolong character, presumably. For example chlorophyll > phenophytin. You=B4ll most probably notice this behaviour during the classic, staged processing of Oolong teas. While some proper panning/steaming of the leaves stops any enzyme activitiy there=B4s still a lot of biochemical life in those leaves, most evident during further panning/rolling cycles and of course during the firings (changes in colors, aromas). > All of this seems plausible, but it leaves open the question of what's be= ing oxidized post fixation. > If it isn't polyphenols ...
Why not ? They=B4re usually the first molecules that go "here, here ...! ", enzymatic or not.
Karsten
Reply to
psyflake
psyflake@yahoo.com writes: > > > I would have thought that such enzymes are unlikely to survive > > later stages of tea treatment, though someone else here (Nigel?) > > might know. > > Sorry I´m not Nigel but no active enzyme makes it through some decent > firing. > Anyway, among those several 100s of known biochemical reactions during > tea processing there are at least some that are not dependent on > enzymes at all. For example the oxidation of theaflavins into > thearubigins and so on.
Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic oxidation, according to this source:
formatting link

/Lew --- Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
formatting link
--
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Reply to
Lewis Perin
>Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic >oxidation, according to this source:
Lew, did anybody say something different ?
Karsten
Reply to
psyflake
psyflake@yahoo.com writes: > >Right, but theaflavins themselves are downstream from the enzymatic > >oxidation, according to this source: > > Lew, did anybody say something different ?
No, and I apologize if I left the impression I was "correcting" you.
/Lew --- Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
formatting link
--
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Reply to
Lewis Perin

Lew, not at all, it was just that I thought I was missing a point here myself.
I just wish that every tea afficionado who hasn=B4t already seen the "miracle" happening, gets a chance to see it unfold, or maybe be able to actively take part in it him or herself: the plucking-withering-fermenting-panning/steaming-rolling-firing of those leaves, all highly non-linear processes where tiny, often unnoted changes in temperatures, pressures, times, ... can have profound effects on the outcome.=20 What a wonderful artform.
Karsten
Reply to
psyflake
>>Go to a local Indian grocery store and try a can of Lipton Green Label or >>Brooke Bond Supreme teas. That is a cheap way of getting some exposure to >>Darjeeling. And are more"black" than "green". > > Is it my imagination, or have Darjeelings, on the average, been getting > greener and greener in the past twenty years or so? > > I do much prefer a more strongly fermented Darjeeling, but they seem > to be increasingly hard to find.
I think this is a phenomena for the "western" markets. Thus, try the Darjeelings marketed to the Indian crowd (available as imports in Indian grocery stores). Those would still have the full flavor and more color than the greenish Darj's. -- Aloke ---- to reply by e-mail remove 123 and change invalid to com
--
Aloke
Reply to
Aloke Prasad
> Lew, not at all, it was just that I thought I was missing a point here > myself. > > I just wish that every tea afficionado who hasn=B4t already seen the > "miracle" happening, gets a chance to see it unfold, or maybe be able > to actively take part in it him or herself: the > plucking-withering-fermenting-panning/steaming-rolling-firing of those > leaves, all highly non-linear processes where tiny, often unnoted > changes in temperatures, pressures, times, ... can have profound > effects on the outcome. > What a wonderful artform. > > Karsten
I'm witnessing that amazing transformation before my very eyes every day with my budding tea tree... I have a pretty cool surprise for everyone, hopefully it should be "live" tonight or tomorrow... I'll keep everyone posted.
It is a very cool experience and really gives you a whole new perspective.
- Dominic
Reply to
Dominic T.

DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.