Decaff (green) tea?

I don't think there are any types of tea that decaffeinate better than others. However, your stir time seems very short. Other procedures I have read for this call for a 30 second steep (no stiring). There are many green teas available that are good for 2 or even 3 steepings, so even if you did a full steep and threw it away, you should still be able to enjoy some good teas. Note, however, that there will still be much more caffeine left in a 2nd steep than there are in decaff teas (which generally have < 1% by weight).

I occsionally drink Upton tea's decaff "China Green". It is fairly good.

Randy

1. Pour water.
2. Let steep for 30 - 45 seconds - no stirring required.
3. Pour water out.
4. Using fresh water, steep as usual.

Up to 80% of the caffeine is removed with this method within the first 30 seconds. There's no point to going over 45 seconds as rate greatly decreases.

As for commercially available decaf'd green tea, my favorites are Upton's decaf green (ZG09) and The Tea Table's

HTH.

Thanks to both you and RJP. That's two votes for Upton's. Guess I'll place my order today, perhaps after giving the home version a few more times.

rgds, ole k

Sorry, one more question: does this steeping time also go for green teas (as their steeping time normally is shorter than most blacks)?

ole k

their steeping time normally is shorter

As Bluesea doesn't seem to be around today, I'll give you my answer, which I bet is the same thing (s)he will say. Yes, this decaffeinating steep time is independent of tea type. The fact that greens get astringent at normal steep times for blacks is not really relevant - its how quickly the caffeine goes into solution, which ought not to depend so much on tea type (although it probably varies with leaf size).

The Upton's, the decaf apricot green, and Upton's Lung Ching are my standard green teas and I enjoy the decaf greens both hot and refrigerator brewed.

I think the main advantage to a commercially CO2 decaf'd tea is that 99% of the caffeine is removed without any residual chemical alteration of the tea's flavor compared to up to 80% for the do-it-yourself method.

(as their steeping time normally is shorter

Thanks, Randy. I've been busy off-line poring over an Upton catalog for gift selections for a couple of friends :).

Yes, I agree. Because caffeine is water soluble, the degree of oxidation (black, green, white, etc.) doesn't really matter. However, leaf type/location on the plant does matter because, for example, a tippy leaf (first or second) contains more caffeine than do other leaves.

Which leads me to think that the reason that older/bigger leaves contain less caffeine is simply because they've been exposed to more rain which has rinsed some of the caffeine away. This is, of course, if all other factors such as variety of tea plant, soil and climate conditions, altitude, etc., are the same.

But, when self-decaffeinating, a smaller leaf (particle) will release its caffeine faster than a larger leaf so a small leaf may reach the 80% level in 20 seconds while a large leaf may need 30 seconds or a little longer to reach the 80% level.

Interestingly enough, an article in Food Research International, Vol 29,

Yes. That time is related to the solubility of the caffeine. Now, it will affect the taste more for green teas since it's now longer in proportion to the total steeping time, but it still works well and doesn't make much of a change.

This may not work well for something like a gunpowder tea which is in balls that need some soaking to open, because you won't have as good an opportunity to get the caffeine into solution.

--scott

Hi Scott, I just posted something very similar to this in the puerh caffeine thread. To rinse a ball type tea, or flaked but still compressed pieces of puerh, I have found that it works well to do one rinse, then let the tea sit for a minute or two so the compressed tea can start to absorb some moisture and expand a little, then rinse it a second time. The effect on the flavor of puerh, not sure about gunpowder, is negligible. Mike Petro

I think caffeine is directly proportional to taste. It is just another component that makes up tea taste. A weak tasting second cup means much less caffeine than the first. If multilple infusions hold up in taste then more caffeine in each cup. Most of the elements that make up tea taste are determined by leaching rates and not solubility. The CO2 processing for reducing caffeine and not affecting taste is a different principle than adding water to leaves and pouring off the first infusion and declaring the caffeine arbitrarily reduced by a percentage.

Jim

Scott Dorsey wrote:

True, caffeine does affect taste, it is bitter.

Neither of these statements make much scientific sense unless it is just coincidence based on your method of brewing. To draw these conclusions you must assume that caffeine will be extracted at the same rate as the other flavor components, it has been scientifically proven that these components dissolve at very different rates and that caffeine is one of the fastest dissolving components by a long shot.

What is the difference? Are they not flip sides of the same coin with regards to extraction?

Nothing arbitrary as the caffeine is significantly reduced, it is quite proven, now the exact percentage extracted depends on several variables mostly involving leaf permeability and the process of extraction being used, time, temp, method, etc.

In addition to the CO2 process there is also a "Swiss Water" process that uses only water to decaffeinate the beans, unfortunately in the case of coffee it also removes flavor components as well.

Mike Petro

It is, it adds some bitterness to the taste. But it's only one component, and it's one that is more soluble than most of the others.

I suspect you'll find that they are almost nearly the same thing. But it shouldn't take much to find out. Xanthine titres are easy to do in your kitchen without much work.

The

It certainly is, but what does that have to do with anything? There are a bunch of other solvent methods possible as well.

--scott

You need to drink more types of tea and then come back in 30 years and give us your answer versus the amount of caffeine in multiple infusions as a general rule. Some teas maintain their astringency after several infusions and for a few it even gets worse. That means the caffeine is still present while the taste is gone. It is easily reproducible in some cases by drinking the first infusion then drinking the second a while later and noting the physical characteristcs like the jitters, sweating, alertness, palpatations, etc. I say that in general where there is taste there is caffeine. When you do drink tea that is decaf it seems to be missing something. So when we speak of caffeine water solubility that doesn't preclude a leaching rate which might be similar to the other taste components. It doesn't take a chemistry major to conclude the less caffeine by weight in the first cup by weight the less in the second if taste is the starting point. I use a lot less puerh per cup than say Yunnan black gold which I think the stronger the better. I wouldn't drink it before bedtime because it makes a lousy cup of weak tea. It's a great breakfast drink. I say that one is a good candidate for caffeine in the second or third infusion with the described physical caffeine reaction. I think the Yunnan's in general have multiple infusions with caffeine and taste. In other words they hold something back on the first infusion all things being equal. It is the cultivar and not some given rate of caffeine solution for all teas. Duh.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:

forgotten that much likewise is performed."

I do believe I have paid the price of admission Jim. Just because I have a website about puerh doesn't mean I don't drink other teas. I drink a lot of them. I now drink so much Shincha/Sencha/Gyokuro that I order them directly from Japan, I drink a lot of the same Yunnan teas you describe, I drink a lot of oolongs as well although I have not developed a full appreciation for them yet, I also drink the occasional first flush cream of the crop Indian teas thanks to some friends of mine. So please lets just debate the facts.

Here is the fallacy of your assumptions. You make it sound like you can measure caffeine content strictly by taste, I sincerely doubt that your taste buds are that calibrated. Astringency does not "equal" caffeine content. Caffeine is bitter but so are a lot of other things. Just because a tea is astringent does NOT mean that caffeine is the source of that astringency. Caffeine is NOT proportional to total flavor, it is but one component that has been proven to dissolve quicker than most others. There may be trace amounts left in the 8th steep but percentage wise it is almost negligible. Now I do agree that in some teas there enough "other" components that get extracted with a hot rinse to make them taste bland however that is not the case with puerh. I also would assume that you could play with the temperature to find a happy medium in those cases.

To look only at the cultivars is to look at the issue in a vacuum. The brewing method, length of steep, temperature of water, size and age of the leaf, all have an effect on caffeine content and extraction.

Once again, the "original thread" here was that you can decaffeinate tea to a large degree by flushing it with hot water, you have offered no proof to the contrary other than to deviate from the topic. I cannot quote precise quantities because that would require laboratory equipment that most of us don't have but all existing data from existing research back up this method.

Mike Petro

Astringency and bitterness are often associated, but need not be linked. Slightly under-ripe persimmons taste fairly sweet but are extremely astringent. Most alkaloids are very bitter, but not all are astringent. Astringency ("drawing together" - literally, making the mouth pucker) is separate from taste.

Tannins and the like can be very astringent, and extract relatively slowly. Caffeine, which is very bitter, extracts rapidly and is not particularly astringent. We ought to be more careful with nomenclature if we're going to use it as a basis for ad-hominem attacks or to confuse newbies and others who (at their own risk) seek authoritative and/or scientific knowledge.

-DM

On the contrary, if we're to confuse newbies, and especially if we're to engage in ad-hominem attacks, careless nomenclature is essential, you cur!

/Lew

Okay here is some more anecdotal evidence that bebunks the idea that caffeine is soluable at a fundamentally different rate than the components of 'taste'. A decaf tea taste 'flat' with no complexity, richness of the desired benchmarks we describe in tea. All it is missing is the caffeine. You can only approximate that decaf taste when any tea goes flat after single or multiple infusions where most would agree there is no taste. Caffeine is a stimulant that increases the absorbtion rate of taste. That is the upset empty stomach syndrome. If no caffeine not much tea taste. Brew your strongest most astringent tea in the sun for 24 hours. It will be much more mild than anything you could brew yourself. The 24 hour soak does not even come close to producing the same taste because less solution, less caffeine, less taste. If you can't wait 24 hours try the same with a 5 minute soak at room temperature. Drink that solution and you won't experience the same caffeine side effects as brewing. This is one reason while water extraction techniques don't work to make decaf. All you would have to do is a soak and dry at the factory. It isn't because you are reducing the taste but can't extract the caffeine. Gongfu brewing essentially produces a saturated solution of caffeine and taste components which is consistent from infusion to infusion. Otherwise the side effects of caffeine from the first cup would physically interfere with the subsequent tastings. The subtle taste of subsequent infusions can only be delivered by caffeine as a stimulant on the tastebuds. The first rinse eliminates the debris and not caffeine. There are some teas where multiple infusions carry the same caffeine effect as the first. You'll discover this by accident an you return to cold pots and don't start fresh. The percentage of caffeine by weight argument in the first infusion doesn't carry much weight when applied to what we experience in the taste of tea. The caffeine by weight in solution is the exception and not the rule. Where you find taste you will see caffeine side effects. Any statements like caffeine is more soluable than other taste componets is like saying the earth is flat to the horizion for a surveyor. It is a scientific factoid with no meaning to the amount of caffeine in your cup. If the caffeine is gone the taste is gone because the water solution rate is not fundamentally different than the leaching rates of other tasting components. You won't discover that by drinking a few teas for a year. Some teas like the British blends give up the taste and caffeine in the first infusion. Other teas maintain caffeine and taste into multiple infusions. In those cases like black Puerh or gongfu the first cup contains the less caffeine. You don't need to titrate but trust your tastebuds and note your physical reaction if caffeine is a problem. You will get in trouble if you trust the 80% solution argument. You're better off to experiment with more water, less tea and drink sooner.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:

But there are LOTS of components of taste, and they are all soluble at different rates.

That's why tea tastes different the longer you steep it. If everything had the same solubility, then tea steeped for ten minutes and diluted would taste the same as tea steeped for one minute (at least assuming nothing dissolved to the point of saturation). This is very clearly not the case. The taste changes dramatically as the steeping is extended, because the less soluble products are starting to go into solution.

--scott

The only reason tea taste different over time is the concentration of solution not the variability of the components. Proportionally they are the same in a weak cup versus a strong cup. The components of the taste are the same only different in concentration. The Gongfu method relies on saturation of all taste components for consistency in taste. The argument that there are fundamentally different dilution rates is a meaningless factoid when applied to taste. Take any tea you want, brew it according to any method you want, and it will essentially taste the same as any other method. The subsequent subtleties argument is nothing more than idiosyncractic personality quirks. The gongfu method can produce more infusions but the taste from a brown betty allowing for volume is the same that is you couldn't tell the difference if blindfolded. If 80% caffeine is extracted in all teas for the first infusion then what percentage of overall taste also is also extracted? You'll find from experience about the same for any given rate of caffeine or any other taste component. Different rates of solution even out in what we describe as taste. Next time don't pick my post apart unless you can reply with more evidence to back up any assertion be it scientific or anecdotal.

Jim

Scott Dorsey wrote: