Looking to get a yixing pot for puerh.

Jim,

I looked at the page you mentioned without using that translating things as I do not need them. The thing i would like to say is : on the same page there is one guang yun gong bing from the "80's" selling for 880 rmb ($106) , this isn't the price for a bundle like you mentionned but for 1 beeng cha and then down on the page another guang yun gong bing from the "70's" that sells for $20. Desn' t that raised any questions to your mind?

[Jim] I'll stick with fair market value and you buy from the collectors. [Jing] This example isn't what the fair market value is. There is no such thing as a guang yun from the 70's at $20, not in China.

For the one from the 80's, the price of 880 rmb is more accurate even though it is too expensive for this particular item as the seller do not mention if it is 1981 or 1989.

Real pu erh collectors are certainly the most accurate sources for aged pu erh.

Jing

Reply to
SEb
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My apologies... this went a little over the limit so its done it two posts.

Hello folks:), I had no idea my post would generate this much response so I will try to answer it all here. First of all there is one glaring error (my fault) I will address up front. I enjoyed Sashas' comment espeacially. The word that goes in there is "recieve". Also, my wife, XiaoLing, wants to know how you know that Sasha?:) I say that because the basic chemical elements undergo specific changes and behave in specific ways with the proper heating, reheating, etcetera. For instance,

90% of caffiene is effectively washed out in the first 30 seconds of brewing. That means that a particularly strong fermented and unfermented blend of loose leaf puer I found recently is effectively decaffinated because it needs 3 washings before you pao your first pot for drinking. The good part is that we get up to 20 pao out of it before we call it quits. There are many other such changes that affect when and how many benefits are most potent to virtually non-existant. Its too much to go into here, but let me just say that the repeated heating and proper handling of your brew (GonFuCha) is the best way to obtain maximum benefit. This has evolved over a very long period of time and the Chinese have got it down to an art and a science.

There also appears to some concern about my veracity regarding prices. This is a tough one to answer. The problem is that you are all right, but there are other consideration in each case. This is what I was talking about concerning misinformation. Many people have a great deal of very good information about tea and teapots and generally good paradigms but are missing some critical perspectives (and often have limited info in certain areas). This creates blind spots that are difficult to overcome and cause controversy among people who are generally right in there reasons for an opinion. I think the best way to answer this is to explain a little of what I do here and how it works. The problem here, I think, is not about people having bad info, but about perspectives created by incomplete views. A situation that is sadly almost unavoidable for most tea drinkers (particluarly novices) in the states.

Though tea is not my only business, tea and teaware is a major elemet in both my business and daily life. I live in Zhuhai just south of Macao. I am married to a beautiful Cantonese lady who helps me with business and have been embraced by her family, friends, and the business community. I think that in the process of explaining how my "typical" day goes you might better understand why my views are as they are.

Typically, when not working, I drink between 20 and 50 cups of tea a day depending on how much I socialise. This number often exceeds 100 when i'm working and buying tea. This is not considered excessive here. My personal favorites are puer, followed by oolong, and then good hard rolled ginseng. I buy and know good greens, reds, whites. The rest I simply don't deal with because of time and other restraints regarding my business.

I own pots for each of these but don't typically carry them with me when buying. The reason for this is the way buying is done in China and serious sellers know me and give me samples to try at home. If the seller can't pao the tea in a teapot set aside for what he is selling I simply won't buy. The comment about collectors and buyers in China not being willing to buy sight unseen (and tasted) is absolutely true. The comment about Chinese being in universal agreement about puer investment is also absolutely true and spreading globally. Good aged puer is getting harder to find all the time. Rip offs are getting more common every day as the "sell before market" bosses fight for the market. This is why serious buyers of quality puer don't buy from taobao or ebay. Its just guessing.

I am originally a midwest farmboy. I did business overseas for 20 years before settling in China. One aspect of my business is negotiating joint ventures between Chinese and American firms so I still have with and a good grasp of American business and trends. I pay for statistical services and other things that help me keep abreast of many things in both China and the states. These things are helpful but they do not replace something that is vital regarding the tea and teaware industry. That is the personal on the site relationship with the industry. Let me tell you a true story. You have in most likelihood never read something like this before. I don't know of its existance at any rate. I will tell you about an actual buying/selling session with a Chinese tea boss. I think that will be more informative than reciting statistics and prices.

My wife and I simply walk into the front shop and are greeted. He knows us. I am the only zhong guo guilo (Chinese Guilo) in Zhuhai in the tea business. There are a couple more in GuangDong province and maybe a dozen more spread across China. He knows that Zi Yau Ren You Xian Gung Si (Freeman Ltd.) is a family business that has many family (some related to him) in the business. I have face with this man and it would cost him face to treat me poorly. He invites me to sit at his tea table and starts looking over his pots.

While he looks over his pots we engage in small talk. Like the weather. This will be important later and I would lose face if I didn't pay attention. All of his pots are perfect or near perfect and he knows that I know it. I look over and smell any "new" pots. An bad pot can be used to cheat you. He gains face.

He pulls over a bag of loose leaf puer blend. Its a blend of fermented and unfermented. I know this but say nothing. I gain face and give him face. He sets a pot out front. I smell it and look it over. Then I reach into the bag and mix the top layer before taking a handfull to smell. He asks me if I want to try it. This is my opportunity to let him give me the sales pitch I know he has been setting me up for so I say simply ask what it is.

He has already told me the weather in Yunannan was rainy a while back and caused the plum trees to blossom late. This is important because the leaves for this blend were picked before the blossoms. Plums are common in China and particularly Yunnan where you often get a slight "plum" taste in the puer. This puer is being presented as having little or none of that problem. On the other hand they had some "lemon" puer on hand among the local bosses. By itself not really good puer. They decided to make a blend. This is it. Both of these puer were exceptionally strong and the lemon needs to be well washed. What I have here is a potentially good blend that needs 3 washings but should yield many good pao. It probably doesn't sit well with a Chinese taste in puer. They are trying to see if Americans would like it. I ask him how many pao will it make. He says up to 20 counting the washings.

We pao around six times not counting the washings and discuss its problems and assets. The Chinese don't have a taste for sweets like westerners so their idea of a good plum is almost sour to Americans. The plum taste in this puer is slight enough to be non existant in this blend, but the "lemon" is strong enough (though very mild) to be confused with bitterness past 10 pao or so if you don't understand "bitterness" from the Chinese view.

I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about

15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

See my next post for the rest.

Reply to
Renny

Part 2... sorry its so long.... very rainy day here with extra time on my hands.:)

I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about

15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

He brings me 3 cakes and two boxes of bricks to look at (this fellow is exclusively puer). He asks me if i've heard about the fake puer from India that has been circulating lately. I let him know I have and look at one box that matches the description of the fakes. I gain face. He smiles. This is not the fake and he invites me to look it over.

I set a couple of the bricks up by the cakes and get out my puer pick. Two cakes have already been cut (a puer pick is used). I can see that the cut ones are good deep inside. I use my pic to cut the third and a brick. I would be considered stupid not to cut it and we would both lose face. Its a good cake (at least its not old puer pressed over new puer). The cakes are one to five years old he says, and the bricks are green. I ask him about prices.

We discuss the factories, farms, the GuangZhou sell before market bosses, and the weather again. During this I let him know my main interest today is green bricks. He is very proud of a five year old small leaf crab he has on the table and asks me to try it first. I know he doesn't really want to sell this right now and is "showing off" so I say sure. Its part of his investment stash and we both know it. We pao about 10 times and he is right. It is very good. The price is high, as I thought it would be, and would be considered too pricy at the price I would have to charge to do well with it. I tell him I wish I could afford it today but I have only brought enough to buy bricks (cash is king here). So we do about 7 or 8 pao of the brick. I ask about only the price of the bricks now.

These bricks still taste green, of course, but have everything else it takes to be a great puer in a year or two. I buy and drink a lot of puer. The price on these is depressed because of the fakes and time of year. We settle on a price of 70RMB (5 bricks = 1360g/box @ around $8.50 US). I tell him how many boxes I want and while he gets my order ready we chat and invite each other to the next get together (could be at anyones house or shop) to show off our new teas, pots, and fill the air with whatever business or family news is hot while our wives cook some (really) good food.

During this process there is ample opportunity to feel, smell, crumble, bend, spindle, fold, and mutilate tea until you are satisfied. Wet or dry. This process is repeated 5-10 times in a day with the only change being the tea you are buying and its requirements and proper examination. We take a break for high tea to relax with ourselves or friends. Eventually we make our way home to relax, entertain, or work (it never ends). This is not every day but regardless of what kind of business or pleasure is going on you can be assured tea is involved.

I hope this little story helps you to understand why I view and buy tea differently and that I have good reasons. I think it is impossible to get this kind of buying/selling experience outside of China. The capacity to have confidence in your purchase, its quality, its value, and keep a finger on the pulse of the tea market is unmatched. Much of that fake Indian puer is already in the states for instance. I now have more green bricks for my clients of high quality ($5 US and shipping... the five bucks is a handling charge and you don't pay that with a purchase). I think the only way I could be more honest and straightforward about this is if I were a better writer.

By the way, if you have ever seen a description of an actual tea sale anywhere let me know. I don't think there are many people in America or China in the tea business who want you to know.:)

Best regards.... Dan

Reply to
Renny

Jim that is no more reliable than doing a search on Ebay, you have to take the results with a grain of salt, it is NOT a true representation of the actual market. Once again, NO serious collector would buy an aged cake site unseen, these guys are catering to the uninitiated! I would not buy antique puerh from this site any more than I would buy Swarovski crystal from Ebay.

Once again you resort to unsubstantiated jabs, innuendo, and insults rather than debating actual conditions. The only reason I even bother responding to you anymore is because you are spreading misinformation.

I rest my case on the facts and my reputation.

Ciao

Mike Petro

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"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed." Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Reply to
Mike Petro

Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial, even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your description was quite excellent, please post more like this!

Mike

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Reply to
Mike Petro

Mike -

Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see neither Dan nor Renny.

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky

Hi Alex,

His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.

I will forward the post to you vis email.

Mike

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:

Reply to
Mike Petro

Thanks a zil.

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky

You're the one spreading misinformation about aged pu pricing. You won't see anything on TaoBao in the 90's or over $50 and the 80's for over a $100. I'll let you know when something from the 60's shows up. All you are describing is a hot market for speculators and not collectors. Tea bricks of all types in Chinese homes is an heirloom and not for sale or consumption. TaoBao has it share of presentation wedding boxes.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote: ...I delete me and you...

Reply to
Space Cowboy

I'll agree there is a price discrepancy in the two posts. However the

80's post didn't mention a gram weight but did show a bundle of some sort or individual bamboo wrapping for one beeng which I haven't seen before maybe indicative of old style. If the 80's was a bundle then pricing is reduced. Only the title mentioned "80's" but the description "Year: 80 ages" so it remains if inclusive or not. The "Pu'er tea merchant" is one of the biggest dealers on TaoBao. I'd buy from him if I knew how. It could be the 70's was legitimate and priced seemingly low for whatever reason. You find alot of 'distress' sales online. I need the 'translating things' but the pricing and selection comes across loud and clear.

Jim

SEb wrote:

Reply to
Space Cowboy

Jim, 3 different people who live in or travel to China extensively have now concurred that TaBao is NOT representative of the actual market in China. You are basing your assumptions on false and/or misleading data.

I guess EVERYBODY else is just wrong and you are the only one who knows the truth, just like a year ago when you chastised me for buying from online Chinese vendors because you were certain that Chinatown Apothecaries were the ONLY place to buy authentic puerh. Where are you buying your puerh now, the very same places I do because even your Chinatown sources eventually told you to? It seems like you just want to disagree with anything I say, if I said the sun was shining you would argue the point. Why don't you go back to talking about stale Department Store Tea where you are at least experienced enough to speak with first hand knowledge.

Mike

Space Cowboy wrote:

Reply to
Mike Petro

You like paying retail markup be my guest. From what I understand the Chinese merchants love to see the (what's that word again for the stupid Occidental) coming with his credit card. Believe me I wouldn't buy anything from anybody who endorses your infomercial site. You need to shop more in Chinatown or TaoBao and learn how to save some money. Some new Puer sellers from China have popped up on Ebay. Damn that shipping. One seller thought he would stockpile in Arizona and ship from there. He found out he couldn't so now my forgotten 5/3 order is being shipped from China which will be another month. So I don't have to retract any statements about websites I declare Ebay a fleamarket. If you can't find puer in Chinatown retail it's at the herbalist shoppe. Be sure to take the characters representation because phonetics won't work.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:

Reply to
Space Cowboy

Yawn.........

Reply to
Mike Petro

Hey Mike:), The only real way to get any good tea (in the mail that is) is to have someone you trust send it to you from China. If the guy you trust cheats you I suppose you should learn the intracacies of caveat emptor.

There will always be enough tea in China to taste before you buy and they wouldn't have it any other way.

Did he really say the only way to get good puer in the states was to go to China town or did I misunderstand?

BTW, they don't say stupid occidental. Its chun guilo or guipo (stupid non-asian man or woman). :)

kinda tickled:) Renny

Mike Petro Wrote:

Reply to
Renny

For a lot of people, the only way to get puer (not necessarily aged or good puer) is to go to Chinatown. And some of what's offered for sale on line at $9 a tuocha appears to be available in Chinese grocery stores for $2 to $3 (Yunnan Xia Guan Tuocha Grade A). It's certainly drinkable if treated like a green tea.

I assume that there are some Chinese in Philadelphia who drink it or put it up for aging since they're not stocking it for me.

Given age and income, I'm not likely to become an expert drinker of the pricier teas, so I go for things in the lower end that please me well enough. The point is worth making that for some of us, learning the ethnic teas is a reasonable thing to do. Other people, like Mydnight and yourself, are able to travel in China learning first hand. I enjoy hearing about the first hand accounts, whether it's Space Cowboy trying the ethnic teas or the various people traveling in India, China, and Africa having first hand experiences in the growing regions.

I've been drinking Chinatown teas since I lived in NYC (1968-1975). I'm sure teas in China are better yet for several different reasons (freshness being a big one), but the teas I've gotten in Chinese markets are better than the Liptons, Luziannes, and Tetleys I knew as a teenager, and sometimes better than teas I've gotten from Specialteas and Upton. And, as with the $10 to $15 bottles of wine, it's fun to be able to take a chance on something without it being a major loss if I don't like the tea that much or get tired of it after a few cups (I'd never buy puers if they didn't have the capacity to age -- I like them a lot occasionally, but haven't wanted to drink them every day) or if something goes wrong with the storage.

Maybe if I had a better puer....but it's not a priority.

Reply to
Rebecca Ore

Hi Renny,

Yes, I have been buying puerh directly from China for years now, and you are right that it is largely a matter of trust. It is not only enough to trust your vendor's ethics but you also must trust your vendors knowledge level. This is particularly true for Westerners trying to buy aged puerh. Many of the vendors in the US don't know enough not to get ripped off themselves and they then innocently pass off these poor purchases onto their customers. As you know the vendors at the markets in Kunming or Guangzhou think nothing of ripping off Chinese customers so you can only imagine what they would do to an unsuspecting laowai. I have developed good relationships with honest vendors at both of these tea markets but even so I seldom buy aged tea.

Yes, a year ago when I was condoning buying puerh from ebay and other Internet vendors he did chastise me heavily for not traveling 6 hours to the nearest Chinatown. Now he is buying from the same people I recommended back then.

Don't pay much attention to the exchanges between Space Cadet (Cowboy) and myself. He has attacked me with a vengeance ever since I opened A website a year and a half ago that teaches people about puerh. My site is non-commercial and I don't sell anything at all, not even advertising, however I do provide links to every online resource I can find. He is determined to insult it and me anyway he can. Just search out the "Poo Poo Puerh" thread dated Feb 14th 2004 and you will see what I mean. Its all a matter of public record.

Mike Petro

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"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed." Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Reply to
Mike Petro

Eric Jorgensen20050620101530.12323f78@wafer6/20/05 12: snipped-for-privacy@xmission.com

You could also form it into a fine crystal under fire. Science ever advances.

Reply to
Michael Plant

Mike snipped-for-privacy@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com6/20/05

14: snipped-for-privacy@mikepetro.org

On the other hand, Mike, if somebody offers Jim a 1960's cake for $50, it is either a ruined 1960's cake -- which is quite possible, albeit improbable -- or something else entirely. If that something else entirely tastes damned good and causes Jim to wonder for a moment whether it is indeed a 1960's cake, then it's worth the 50 bucks, and all the more power to Jim and the thief. (Does that make *any* sense at all?)

It would be fascinating to perform a *weighted* average calculation on your list. I'd place 50% of the weight on eight.

Get yours NOW.

Michael

Reply to
Michael Plant

Alex ChaihorskyGtHte.491$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com6/20/05

18: snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com

Well, Sasha, now that you let the cat out of the bag -- so to speak -- I'll just pack up my marbles and go home.

Michael

Reply to
Michael Plant

When a guy pops in the group selling stuff and says trust me, yeah right. Commercial advertising in this group is prohibited. If you can't find pu'rh in Chinatown it ain't no Chinatown. It'll go for about penny/gram. I'll leave it up to your taste buds if cheap is good. Or you can pay $10 for the Xiaguan Millennium 100g tuocha from the website in Houston which has been previously recommended by the Barnum of Puer which cost less than a buck in my Chinatown. If you have any scarce pu'rh me or others will be willing to sample it for you. It won't remain scarce too long. The term refers to stupid foreigners which includes Occidentals and Asians. You've already picked the wrong side.

Jim

Renny wrote:

Reply to
Space Cowboy

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