Oldest gaiwan in a movie

I saw a movie called "love is a many splendored thing" There were gaiwans all over the table where they were having dinner in the parents home. I think it may be a 50's movie. Jenn

Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely sure what you're saying. Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented until, say, some time in the twentieth century?

/Lew

I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th century. I know pots are collectables at least back to the 19th century. I know Gaiwans are porcelain but I dont know of any collector market. I still think along the lines of a novelty export item. I dont remember seeing them in Chinatown till the nineties. I would have bought one if I saw them sooner since the sixties. I know teaware in China is regional.

Jim

...I am not a movie critic...

Wikipedia's gaiwan article says they date to the Ming dynasty. I'm aware that Wikipedia isn't an infallible source of information, but neither is Denver's Chinatown.

/Lew

I was similarly confused by the initial post, but I get what you're saying. I think you'd have to be an expert in Chinese cinema to really know what the first film was... outside of U.S. cinema. I'd disagree that there isn't a collector market though, I have seen a number of very old, and even more expensive gaiwans. I was at an exhibition of some modern artisans of chawans (matcha bowls) and the antique dealer also had some info on gaiwans we talked about which was amazing. There were many others besides just porcelain.

- Dominic

Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. I still think a 20th century creation. I know chawan probably date Ming which is different. I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the seventies decade. I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.

Jim

We have a couple of Chinese antique dealers in town. Ill make a note to find out more about Gaiwans there. It bugs me I think the Gaiwan looks like a modern form.

Jim

The dates on some of the ones the woman who owns the gallery showed me were very old, and she is Chinese and her shop and reputation are above and beyond. She managed to bring together a show of some top Japanese tea bowl makers so I had no reason to doubt her. Some were jade, not glazed or jade-like but actual jade and some celadon/ porcelain. The one jade gaiwan was being sold for almost $2000 USD (converted) and there were three or four in the $1000 range with a bunch in the $100-400 range. There had been one really beautiful one with a full history that was going for about $125 which I almost bought and now kick myself that I didn't.

- Dominic

If the period is "mythic past", they can be found in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".

N.

I'm currently looking into it because my curiosity is piqued, and I have found a couple references to gaiwans/guywans having "been used in China since 1350" in the three piece cup/saucer/lid configuration. I have an email out to two friends and the owner of that antique shop, so if/when I hear anything back in addition I'll update.

- Dominic

Another conundrum why wasnt the gaiwan exported along with teapots to Europe since 1600s. It seems the gaiwan was established as a brewing vessel in teahouses and palaces by the Qing dynasty. My guess late Qing. I dont think we will see any earlier that 1850s as an antique. I think any Chinese household will have an ancestor teapot. Im not sure about gaiwan.

Jim

I don't think they were as highly valued at the time, possibly, as the teapot. It was more of a personal item without any real pomp or circumstance. All of the ones I had seen (just in photo form) were simply plain and basic, only the jade one was decorative and probably had more importance. Just like exporting chopsticks or any other similar cultural-specific utilitarian item, none of those really "caught on" or mattered much in America (and I assume Europe) outside of novelty much before the same time-frame as Gaiwans began showing up. I wish I could remember the exact dates from that night but I can't, I want to say that one was early 1800s and many were mid-late

I still never see chawan in America to this day, I can count on one hand the total number I have found at shops for sale still to this day. I don't think it has to do with their age, history, or value, just that it is not a popular item in modern day America outside of very specific places.

- Dominic

One friend directed me to this, which does indeed mirror the shape of many of the antique ones I had seen:

- Dominic

I've used gaiwans of this shape, and I don't think they work as well as flared ones. In my experience, you're much less likely to burn your fingers with a modern gaiwan.

/Lew

Gaiwans do date to the Ming Dynasty. But as times changed in ancient China, so did fashion, and tea customs. Then, tea ware styles and types also changed. This is true even today. Chapan manufacturers for example, change models every year.

The problem with Chinese movies though, is that unless the movie is specifically about tea, then they will go with any type of tea utensils and place it in the wrong time period. You will see gaiwans or even Zisha teapots used in the Tang dynasty, for example. Might be creative, but historically inaccurate. So when it comes to tea customs in movies, don't believe everything you see.

Im starting to think any period piece with a gaiwan is an anachronism. I dont see any internet evidence of its popularity besides teahouse and palaces during the Qing dynasty. If it was that popular it would have been exported with teaware like pots and cups. I dont think it showed up in the West till sometime after the Nixon/ Mao 72 meeting only then as a resurrection of chinese past. I would look to Hong Kong and Tawian antiques if it was anything more than a regional custom.

Jim

A few thoughts:

I was struck by the use of a gaiwan by Jet Li in the movie "Fearless" (he quaffs some tea directly from it in between bouts in the village square) set in the mid-to-late 19th century. A good number of scenes in that film take place in incredible multi-storied tea houses that I would love to build a replica of in the US.

If you want to see interesting anachronisms in tea equipment/ methodology try last year's Hong Kong release "Tea Fight", a martial- arts tea-brewing film if you can imagine such a thing. It features tea brewing competitions between competing clans in both the Song dynasty and modern day, but the contestants use Tang dynasty-style trough-and-disc tea grinders as well as Song and Ming equipage. Very odd.

Regarding the comment about Yixing pots not being around in the Tang dynasty, that's true to some degree. Per the book "Yixing Pottery: The World of Chinese Tea Culture" (a nice guide to Yixing history and traditional pot styles), Yixing was producing Celadon and clay pottery in quantity as early as the 11th century BC. They show archeological examples of true zisha Yixing tea pots that date to the Northern Song Dynasty, just after the fall of the Tang.

An interesting discussion! Charles

I hate to ask this, but could Li with teaware really compare to Buster Keaton with a coffee cup and saucer in _College_?

/Lew