RFDT needs FRF ( frequently repeated fallacies)

I might append to this the related caffeine claims such as "white tea has the lowest levels of caffeine" and "puer has no caffeine," both of which I've heard fairly regularly...sometimes even in tea shops whose information is usually pretty good.

--Michael J. Coffey--

Ironic, isn't it?

I might append to this the related caffeine claims such as "white tea has the lowest levels of caffeine" and "puer has no caffeine," both of which I've heard fairly regularly...sometimes even in tea shops whose information is usually pretty good.

--Michael J. Coffey--

Ironic, isn't it?

This is fun! Sort of like Tea Mythbusters.

Since we recently discussed this one and came to a consensus, I'll add it:

Otherwise safe-to-drink water does NOT need to be boiled then cooled. It can simply be heated up to the desired temperature.

Alan

snip

[Alan]

Hi Alan, Forgive me for entering a thread I've not even read, but despite the "consensus," are you saying it is *not* appropriate to heat water to the desired temperature instead of bringing the water to a boil and then letting it fall to the desired temperature? I think this is purely a matter of taste, and many I respect taste a better tea by stopping before the boil. Who am I to argue with folks' taste? Perhaps you refer to the oxygen issue, wherein some believe that bringing the water to a boil depletes oxygen. Anyway, probably my misunderstanding of your intention. Michael

(not directed to Michael, I just used this as a jumping in point)

I just wanted to pop in to add that the reason I've stayed away from this thread is that it is neigh impossible to list FRF's without introducing more fallacies and also inciting disagreements. Fallacies are fallacies, they are not always black and white. Many are borne of truths or custom, some are plain false, and the rest are shades of grey.

I don't want to be the one to rain on anyones parade, but I think this idea of a "FRF" is best left alone.

- Dominic

I normally heat my water to the appropriate temp, but I've never been averse to letting water cool to the desired temp and then brewing.

well it would be ok for some solid fallacies such as 'tea cures cancer' or 'tea cures syphillis'

Damn it... you mean my Syphillis ain't going anywhere?!? That's it, I'm switching to coffee and leaving the group!

- Dominic

(Yes, I can see pointing out the obvious ones, but my Magic 8 Ball predicts that it won't stop there and be a hotbed of contention. Again, everyone is free to do what they want, I was just offering up my singular nay vote.)

BTW What's the consensus on tea and Chlamydia? ...a friend wants to know.

:D

if properly applied, oolong tea paste may cure chlamydia, but only if "your friend" has gonorrhea at the same time.

/ true, this topic it may end up very diverted from its intended point.

I agree with you; in fact, you summarized that entire discussion! Consensus was that the "rule" to always boil water for tea came from a time when water safety was more of an issue than it is today. We noted that boiling the water would drive out desirable oxygen, so bringing safe water up to the desired temperature should maximize dissolved oxygen without compromising safety.

Alan

How about a synopsis of significant discussion? Sort of a "Cliffs Notes" for tea-lovers. Out-and-out fallacies could be identified as such, while less-absolute topics could be summarized with the different schools of thought.

Alan

That could be useful. But I was proposing something far simpler: just the out-and-out fallacies. The three I proposed are all falsified by measurements that have already been taken.

/Lew

Incidentally.. I was thinking about this recently. China was making mostly green, white and oolong teas before, then it moved into making more black teas when the trade opened with Portugal and England. At the same time, water should have been boiled so that green tea would not taste very good.. Have chinese invented some way to get around this? Maybe boiling in clay kettles is better? I noticed that boiled water often has stronger metallic taste. But I haven't done thorough testing..

comment.

I have two answers, both of which are not direct experiences but those of folks who have either their own personal experiences or have done their own research.

1) In Chinese-culture societies (so as to cover both political descriptions of Taiwan), all teas are brewed with boiling or near boiling water. But instead of stewing them for as long as us Westerners do, they'll brew for MUCH shorter periods of time. I do have personal experience that this works, and you can too. Take, say, your favorite Yinzhen/Silver Needles white tea and measure out identical quantities. Brew one at 175 degrees (F) for 3-4 minutes, and brew one in a full boil water for 15-20 *seconds*. Taste them side by side. They will probably taste quite different, but neither will be unpleasant. 2) Tea DID taste unpleasant for a really large chunk of tea-drinking history--it was taken as a medicine for the first thousand years or so. Then, for nearly three thousand years, basic tea processing methods kept being developed to make it more tasty. (Of course, that suggests that the process isn't still continuing, but from what I've found there's been no new "category" or "family" of tea produced since the invention of fully-oxidized red/black tea which is why I'm saying it stopped a couple centuries ago.)

's just my take.

--Michael J. Coffey--

Ironic, isn't it?

There's a lot of truth in this, but I sure wouldn't subject a delicate green tea to boiling water even for a very short steep. Silver Needle can probably take this treatment because:

- in a first steep of 15-20 seconds the thick buds barely get hydrated;

- in subsequent steeps the buds start out saturated with tepid water, so after you pour on the boiling water the resulting temperature the tea steeps at will be well short of boiling.

/Lew

or white tea he buds and leaves are so thick that you can't really compare it with a delicate green.

Having said that, I have recently started drinking delicate greens (albeit high grade ones) using boiling water.

And get excellent result.

I simply pour the water more slowly and use a small amount of leaves.

All teas have two kinds of flavours: the manmade roasting and natural floral.

Using a smaller amount of leaves seem to allow me to penetrate to the inner floral flavours more quickly (and save me money as well).

I have to admit I haven't tested this more systematically, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone says high temperature brewing somewhat also works for delicate greens.

Ditto. Likewise for all but highly fermented oolongs, reds and shu Pu-erh - and for me, I'd apply the logic to all greens.

To my taste, most un- or partially fermented teas respond almost instantly to boiling water not only by losing some desirable notes, but (worse) by developing "cooked vegetable" flavors that never go away on further steeping at any temperature.

It is for this reason that I simply do not believe that even the world's most experienced tasters can gauge the "quality" of green teas to be cool-brewed from a boiling cupping. It's not just a matter of mentally rebalancing a sensory portfolio; there are non-linear chemical changes going on. Bit like a trapdoor algorithm, for those of you who understand modern computer security (not me!), or any of the many other processes in which the output cannot easily be uniquely correlated with the input.

I am mystified by the common practice of "awakening" fisted leaves at the boil, then steeping the resulting cabbage in tepid water. I almost always work up from the coolest brew that will make a pleasant taste, to much higher temperatures when delicate notes are gone anyway.

-DM

Lewis Perin wrote: > That could be useful. But I was proposing something far simpler: just > the out-and-out fallacies. The three I proposed are all falsified by > measurements that have already been taken.

Right - the problem (or not) is that pe> I agree with you; in fact, you summarized that entire discussion!

A perfect example of one that I consider if not fallacious, then at least requiring some sort of evidence to merit it's near-universal repetition in the face of countervailing evidence and much more plausible explanations for both effect and practice. Science by consensus is about as useful as history by consensus.

My I modestly suggest, therefore, that veracity is unestablishable to the universal satisfaction of any forum like this. Instead, if we really want to help each other and newbies (if they aren't the same), perhaps an uncontentious version of Alan's suggestion

where nothing is deemed absolute, no evidence need be presented, and there is just a list of "some people believe this, and some the opposite" propositions? FAA might limit flights of quasi-technical fancy to safe airspace. And as someone once said, more or less: All truths may be valid, except those that specifically exclude all other truths.

-DM

Having not seen the entire universe of fisted tea awakeners, nor even a properly contrived sampling, I cannot speak for the science of the matter, but I have observed some brewers performing this. While they do use hot water, the water is added quite slowly to the leaves. Thus -- you will correct me if I'm wrong -- the ultimate temperature is somewhat below boiling. Further, they work quite quickly, more quickly than I am capable of. So, I wonder if "at the boil" isn't subjective enough to warrant discussion. Does the tea taste good? We'll just let the mouth make these decisions. Michael

I hope you aren't assuming that the non-linear changes - let's call them "cooking" - happen only at or near boiling and that aside from that it's just a question of how fast the stuff in the leaves comes out into the liquor. I sometimes brew teas with room-temp water and

*very* long steep times, getting good results with some greens. But my tepid-brewed tea tastes quite different from tea brewed as cool as 140F, which is considered a pretty low temp by most people. So, in a sense, brewing Biluochun, say, in a way most people would call quite conservative still cooks it.

Not sure that "tepid" is the right word here. Some dedicated gongfucians try very hard to make sure that each steep is ultra-hot.

That's certainly one valid way to do it. But I tend to take what I sardonically call The Tragic View of Brewing Tea: for any one tea, there's no one method that will get all of the tea's best qualities into the cup.

Or, looking at it another way, I like to eat lots of foods raw. But there are lots of foods, including some in the first group, that I like cooked. I wouldn't want to restrict myself to a raw-food diet.

/Lew