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Supertaster Discussion

In my other post

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browse_frm/thread/b019b33c6bd1f8a1/ae6c8795145c24ed? hl=en#ae6c8795145c24ed) a discussion has begun on "Supertasters" and Corax has some amazing detail and information on the subject that I thought it warranted it's own post both for better discussion and to make it easier to find and archive. It is a topic that has always intrigued me but that I never put much effort into researching because it tends to only be brought up in reference to wine experts. The reason it interests me is that I would guess I could qualify as a "supertaster." I'm not saying for certain, nor is it any sort of boasting because it can be as much a negative as a positive in my experience. Corax had asked about the six characteristics and which apply so I will start there:

[a] have a very low threshold for sweetness,

I despise most desserts and sweets. I have a few weaknesses (Jolly Ranchers, Sour Patch Kids, Sprees, Fireballs, and a few others) but in terms of real desserts I will go for a fruit option or a dessert heavily featuring fruit every time. It is less sugary sweet and much more flavor than just sugar. Artificial sweetners are right out, they come through so strong and chemically that I can't even get it down in any sort of drink or food where it seems others can't even notice it.

[b] tend to salt their food heavily,

Guilty. I love Asian foods and soy sauce always features a prominent role in most dishes. I love to cook and I think it is because I know this that I under-salt so that I don't offend others, but I can have a hard time judging and either result too bland or too salty... I now tend to just go with what tastes good to me and have stopped trying to compensate mostly.

[c] 'do not particularly enjoy the flavor of alcohol,'

We covered this in the previous thread. I strongly dislike the flavor of alcohol and can taste it very intensely. This is why I tend to distrust the term "supertaster" and have always ignored it because in my opinion no one who has this ability could possibly stand being a wine taster. The oaky/smoky/char/tar and the alcohol both combine to hit so uncomfortably hard that 80% of wines are not enjoyable to me and to get to the subtle nuances and deeper flavors is like trying to see through dense fog. My contention is that you would have to *not* be a supertaster to be a good wine expert. That doesn't mean they do not have excellent or refined palates.

[d] are especially sensitive to both astringency and acidity,

Bingo. Again we touched on this previously as well but I strongly avoid astringency in everything and most white teas are completely out for me from this alone no matter how I try. Take for instance Silver Needles or even Oriental Beauty, no matter how I try I cannot drink them due to this... I can smell the astringency of Silver Needles just from the dry leaf. Again this spills over to my views on wine with regards to both. I can also tell when a dish is out of balance even a small amount in regards to acidity and it is like an off-note in a symphony.

[e] tend not to like spicy or fatty foods, and

Fatty to some degree, like I do not get much joy out of a particular fatty bit of steak or pork as some do. I do not have trouble with something rich like a lobster bisque or an amazing dish I had at Le Pommier recently which was a 1/4 of a chicken over truffle risotto with a massive slab of lobster butter on top which melted seductively over it all (easily 6-8oz. of just fat in that dish). Spicy is a different story but it has to be a particular spicy. I frequently get my Thai food at a level "50" (10 is the hottest they usually make it for customers) which is the maximum and it is usually pencil peppers and chilis. Sichuan dishes are another favorite but that is again that novicane type hot and not habenaro type hot. Even in extremes I like it to be balanced and proper not just hot for hot's sake.

[f] 'tend to find all sorts of vegetables overly bitter.'

This one I don't know about. Endive and some greens like kale if not properly dealt with, yes. I do enjoy a great many though. Sweet Potatoes are an impossibility for me, I have never successfully even swallowed some but that is not due to bitterness... that and Durian fruit. This is the one category I would say is maybe not true for me, but I can quickly tell if someone was lazy and cooked down a bitter green in a dish rather than blanching it or cooking it separately and then adding it.

It is thought that 25% of the population is classified as a "supertaster" so it is not that rare I guess, in my case I think I inherited it because both of my parents, while not gourmands, have amazing palates and are very perceptive to tastes similar to myself. I love the show Top Chef and the one test I'd love to get on there is where they set a dish in front of them and they taste it and have to name the ingredients, as a sort of trick I often list out the entire make-up of a dish down to frozen or fresh ingredients, brands of sauces used, technique, etc. On the flip side though even when not trying I unfortunately do this same analysis and even a four star meal can be ruined to me by a small issue others would never notice. It certainly isn't a learned ability either because I have been able to do this ever since I was very little. The only thing that helps is that with time and experience you can place a particular taste rather than it just being favorable or unpleasant and anonymous.

I think the concept is fascinating and frustrating because just like trying to explain any sense it is very difficult and impossible to relay to someone who does not sense the same way as you. Colorblindness, touch sensitivity, hearing, etc. But it plays into tea, and the experience. When one person can taste a difference in water, or a particular note in a tea, or even something like if it was stored in plastic or bamboo it can seem nit-picky or overly dramatic but I can understand and think it leads to a lot of misunderstanding and conflict when in reality it is very much the truth to any party involved as to how they individually perceive it. I think how some arguments on this group even could probably be attributed to different human experience and category of taster.

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.
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In terms of being able to love tea, it's lucky for you that you have a healthy tolerance for bitterness. Even a hypersensitivity to astringency limits one's range, you might say. I think lots of people are lost to tea because they can't stand bitterness.

/Lew

Reply to
Lewis Perin

I avoid corn syrup and refined sugar. I dont use salt and watch labels closely. I dont like wine or spirits but cant pass up an occasional black and tan at a pub. You build up an immunity to tea harshness. The only spice I cant tolerate is ginger. I do enjoy the marble and gnawing the bone of a $100 steak. I like my veggies especially the southern greens. I can tell the difference between any two cups of tea. Just dont ask me to explain it to you. Tea tasting vernacular is the biggest obstacle to tea tasting, not gastronomy.

Jim

PS I going to my first tea tasting ever. Everbody brings some Puer. Hopefully it wont get canceled again.

On Jan 13, 8:12 am, "Dominic T." snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: ...you are a supertaster when...

Reply to
netstuff

There's the weird thing, I think it is because I drink teas that aren't bitter. I like Japanese greens, the more light and nutty chinese greens, yellow teas, and heavily roasted non-floral oolongs that aren't bitter or astringent (Shui Xian, new found love Song Zhong Dan Cong, and a few others). Most of these don't even turn bitter if oversteeped or improperly prepared. Now, I think unconsciously I have just always steered myself that way and never even knew it. White tea is always disappointing to me because of the high amount of astringency and some others like oriental beauty.

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

Yeah, but you occasionally indulge in kudingcha, if I remember correctly, right?

/Lew

Reply to
Lewis Perin

I have a tolerance for a good black and tan too. The strange thing is that I don't like super hoppy beers but I will drink stouts and British/Irish Ales and wheat beers which have no bitterness. I'd take the marrow from that steak bone but you could have the fat/gristle. It is tough to find the right words sometimes especially with some really complex teas... I have just given in and don't even try. I'll give the prominent scents and flavors but the only way to go beyond that is to experience it. Hopefully your tasting goes well, do you know all of the participants? I think my trouble is trying to drink tea with strangers, you get the psuedo-educated types or the show-off braggart types who want to regale you with the subtle nuance of pronunciation and (questionable) tales of their last 50 trips with the most revered tea masters of the world... I never seem to just find a normal person who just really enjoys tea and has no pretensions or a superiority complex. Y'know those damn people who claim they have super powers like tasting :)

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

Interesting discussion. I've often wondered whether I'm a supertaster, mostly because I don't like hot/spicy foods and tend to appreciate the more subtle flavors in food. But I don't meet most of the criteria you list. I think I'm very sensitive to bitter flavors, and really have to push myself to enjoy foods that are even slightly bitter.

I was recently at a community event at which Maya Tea was giving out samples of some of their teas. I chose an English breakfast style tea over a vanilla rooibos (can't stand vanilla flavor in tea, but love it in just about everything else; smells like Play-Dough to me). After taking a sip I went back and told the guy I thought he had given me the vanilla rooibos by mistake. He smiled and said that the pitcher had had some of the vanilla rooibos in it earlier, and that most people wouldn't have tasted the trace of vanilla that was left. Now, he might have been blowing smoke, but it got me to wondering whether I might have a future as a tea taster. Fast-forward to last night, when I watched a "how it's made" program about the Taylor's of Harrogate tea taster. Did NOT look like fun to me.

Alan

Reply to
Alan
[dominic] Corax had asked about the six characteristics and which apply so I will start there: [...] [corax] so basically 5 out of 6. to the extent that this is a genuine category [and i gather it is -- i've read that 'super-tasters' actually have more taste buds per square centimeter than ordinary tasters; and something similar is noted in the wikipedia article at
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-- see footnote 2], it certainly sounds as though you would qualify for inclusion. you could probably get a job with general foods tasting! though it might drive you crazy. [dominic]
[corax] this analogy -- to colorblindness -- is of especial interest to me, because [if the extra-taste-buds thing is true] there are objective, anatomical, and presumably measurable/quantifiable factors in both cases. in other words, the 'condition' [if you want to call it that] would be observable under bodily examination, in both cases. that's particularly important because so much of the taste thing is, as i think you've mentioned already, *subjective* for all of us. looking back at the CHA DAO piece i see i cited this passage from steinberger:

Brochet has shown that people given a white wine that has been dyed red will describe it exactly as they would a red wine. He has also found that if he serves the same wine in two different bottles, one labeled a cheap vin de table and the other a pricey grand cru, people invariably lavish praise on the latter and scorn the former ....

i think there's a lot of this [far too much] in the world of tea, too. someone says: 'that tea stinks ... you need to try THIS tea' -- and if they have enough clout, others will follow the trend. whether or not their own palate corroborates it.

this is especially dangerous when the person saying 'this is the good stuff' is a *vendor*. if s/he has sufficient powers of persuasion, s/ he can create a whole fad around a given tea -- even if it's not really a great tea.

but then -- what *is* a great tea? is the whole thing subjective? do we arrive at a consensus when enough trusted colleagues have tasted it and said, 'this is great'? but then, how is that different from the lemming effect mentioned above?

part of me wondered whether *this* might be the role for a super- taster -- to be the reality check on a product [such as tea] and to verify/certify whether the claims made about it are correct. but then i thought, 'but what if they end up reporting nuances that non-super- tasters just can't detect?' -- outside the realm of ordinary human sense-perception, like a dog whistle or an infra-red light wave.

[dominic] in reality it is very much the truth to any party
[corax] absolutely correct.

it's kind of funny that this should come up just now, as i have been pecking away at another piece for CHA DAO, about changes in one's perception of any given tea -- trying to sort out the subjective and objective factors entailed. hopefully that will be ready to post before too long.

Reply to
corax

A bunch of strangers. I hope for the best but expect the worse. I understand tea tastings to be nothing but a gab fest. If so Ill just smile. From what I understand the fact that everyone will bring a sheng tells you what to expect. Yeah Ill bring a sexy sheng they havent seen before. From then on nothing but shu. Id consider bring a chunk of my 500g golden bud tuo if I had any left. That was damn good shu. If there is no subsequent shu interest Ill bail out. I would love to have a cup of tea with someone sharing the moment where nothing has to be said.

Jim

...i luv scotch eggs...

Reply to
netstuff

I just wish I could land a job as a food sommollier at a place like The French Laundry, my luck I'd get cat food at Whiskas. I've seen the tea tasters and I don't think I could do that.

I brought up colorblindness because I often have trouble with some reds, browns, blues and greens. But I enjoy artwork and paint often... however just as I subconsciously adapt my teas I tend to stick to certain palates (of color). So I think the body just adapts to the either deficiency or extra sensory naturally and pretty seamlessly.

As for the testability I'd love to know if I truly have more TBI (taste buds per inch, I think I just coined that term:) and it would be interesting to find if that is true.

The wine thing I had touched on in my comments about the TV show "The F Word" with Gordon Ramsay. They do a blind test of skilled or distinguished guests. The thing is that even though I'm not a big alcohol fan, I could easily tell a white from a red regardless of coloring or obfuscation. I can tell a chemically aged wine too. I can enjoy a few wines but they tend to be a bit sweeter, not oaky, and properly aged. Montinore Estates Riesling is a favorite, Moscatos, a couple select Ice Wines, a few reds from a local vinyard Narcissi Winery, but little else even very expensive or prized wines.

Now, back to tea, I totally agree with you and the power of suggestion... to a point. For a couple years I thought I had to like Puerh because it is so widely enjoyed and prized. I tried some of everything expensive, cooked, uncooked, aged, old bush, magically kissed by unicorns, etc. and I just could not convince myself no matter how hard I tried. White and TGY/green oolongs are another. I've been to a tea shop where a single cup of gyokuro was as much as a fine meal and at the time I believed it was worth it, but now know different. I think it comes from two things, suggestion/popular opinion and price. As much as opinion, when you see a special urn with an astronomical price and fancy lineage hand picked by virgins during the summer solstice in extremely rare amounts it does pique the curiosity and adds to the allure no matter how much you know better deep down. Exclusivity is a big seller. At this point I still have quite a few teas to try for the first time and will do so slowly as the opportunity presents itself but my days of huge orders of a ton of teas are pretty much over. I'm comfortable with my narrowed selection (BLC, Dragon pearls, Shui Xian, Song Zhong, and Huo Shan Huang Ya) with an occasional treat tea slipped in with season or mood (Que She, Gyokuro, Shincha, Matcha, some black or red tea). To me the most important aspect in choosing a tea now is true freshness and quality regardless of popularity or fads.

A great tea? It is purely personal. Sunflower brand jasmine green tea was a great tea to me for a few years. As for being a judge based on supertasting, I'd still say no. I find that my ability is most used by friends and family to pick out a particular flavor in a dish or drink that has them stumped. I am not big on ever forcing my views or tastes on anyone, I'll gladly share them to someone interested but also respect theirs too. To pick out that hint of cinnamon in chili, or a scallop that was charred too heavily outside and then salvaged by a chef who thought he could fool someone when amongst sauce, or to try to name a note in a new tea are all within reach, but to somehow confirm or deny a tea wouldn't be for me. I'd say which I like and why but that has no more clout than anyone elses opinion.

As for the outside "normal" sense detection I found this when reading up on things after our initial conversation:

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It is written by Mike Steinberger, a wine "expert", who believes he is a supertaster and goes to have an actual test done to determine his TBI (or fungiform papillae per square centimeter to be correct) and finds he is decidedly normal. It does reinforce my initial hypothesis that wine drinkers and experts are the exact opposite of a supertaster no matter what they would like to believe. I'd love to have the same test done to see if it is truly physical or all just a bunch of garbage and like him I have just either trained myself or have a brain wired a bit differently that takes the same data as everyone else and "sees" it a bit differently. The whole PROP thing shows there is something happening different between people, and that would be the neat thing to study if I were a scientist. Take a sampling of people, test them all to their reaction to PROP, and then measure the six or so traits in each, and finally measure the TBI. My personal guess is that you would find all of then to exhibit different traits that fell into non, taster, and super and no real correlation to TBI... which is why I never personally (until this) put much effort into the supertaster theory.

Looking forward to it! These are the kind of unique conversations I'd love to have in real life that I have no one to converse with and kind of re-energizes my batteries on this great group of people the Internet can bring together.

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

Hey hopefully it is a great time! The Puerh part to it gives me hope that it will be more 90/10 real to fad ratio. If not my suggestion is to make up the most outlandish tales as to the origin of your tea and have a ball. "I got this sheng by wresting a dragon in a cave deep in Yunnan where they have been dry aging for thousands of years, I killed him with my Puerh knife and drank the first cup steeped in it's tears which I found to be too hard of water for a proper cup so I spat it out."

I could not agree any more strongly with your view on silence. I don't mind some chit chat, get to know everyone, in between discuss what was had and thoughts, but right before, during, and right after nothing really needs said. I think we'd have a good tasting... now if I could just get a taste for Puerh ;) Scotch eggs, and I'm there!

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

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