Wine thoughts for dinner menu?

As usual, for me, nothing (or mineral water) with soup, or let guests sip whatever they already have.

While I always first think of Bordeaux varietals with lamb, a hefty PN can do the trick (assuming the couscous salad isn't a clash). I'd just think big here- not where you want a delicate PN. Something like St. Innocent Brickhouse (or Beaux Frères if you have the bucks) from a good vintage. And you're right, mushrooms would help/

thank god!

Impossible to match unknown cheeses. As a general rule, I find (contrary to what I thought I knew years ago) whites match with more cheeses than red. And ones with a bit of residual sugar sometimes bridge a gap.

Hopefully others will have more to offer. Please report! Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

ok, i'll give it a swing:

Here I would suggest off-dry or even slightly sweet. Not heavy sweet, though. Think more aperitif. Off the cuff, without naming a specific wine, I'd say Gewurtztraminer.

And then here I would say dry. Too bad they don't have Gruner Veltliner in Oregon. Could have been nice with that dill & crab combo.

If this came just before the lamb, I would make the switch to red wine at this point. But the next course throws me off.

It seems odd to go from Gazpacho with crab, then to earthy rich pasta in the butter/sage, and back out to what is essentially shellfish & cold tomatoes again. Am I being totally square and unimaginative?

Oregon does have some powerful Pinots. Someone will surely have a good suggestion for which one.

No wine?!?! Perish the thought. Surely somebody will have a good idea for this. The blood orange makes me think sweet, but it depends which root vegetables and what the salad is dressed with. Orange and balsamic work well with something sweetish, but then you're heading into sweet wines with 3 courses. Which I totally endorse, by the way. If the 3 sweeties are from different varietals, you can do some really interesting pairings.

Go with the late harvest starting here. So great with strong or spicy cheeses, especially blue-veined ones.

And please keep in mind that I am, by no stretch of the imagination, a food & wine pairing expert!

What about making this the 'cleansing' course before the main & going with something sparkelling? (Argyle Brut?)

I know Oregon produces a few Merlots... Can't say I've tried them, but would any have the chops (pun intended) to stand up to this dish?

I don't claim to be an expert myself. hope this helps... Mathew

Salut/Hi Roy,

GREAT fun menu, though a difficult one for wine, IMO.

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:01:36 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

How hot and dominant's the chilpotle going to be? If VERY mild, I'd look to a rosé. A hot glaze is horrible for wine. Maybe an off dry riesling, though don't look for a good marriage, merely survival.

Hey, just thought. It's not from Oregon, but a dry sherry might be quite good here.

Well, like Dale, I don't usually serve wine with soup, but I'd be happy to let people continue with the sherry.

I have difficulty in imagining the tastes here. Butternut is (from my vague memory of the stuff) pretty bland, as is pasta in itself, and the sauce is either going to be quite bland, or else dominated by sage, which can't be said to be hugely wine friendly either. This is the only course which I can't begin to get enthusiastic over, especially after the soup.

This looks interesting as a combination. Is there alcohol in the Granita? and how much tabasco will there be? I'd look to a "fresh-ish" kind of wine. Perhaps a Sauvignon Blanc, if you get one with a good balancing acidity. I wonder if Lord St Helier has any ideas on this as it could almost be a New Zealand-ish kind of dish.

Hot chops and cold salad? (I''m not very up on Israeli cooking, but I thought couscous was from Muslim North Africa and that in the Eastern Med one used Bulghur (cracked wheat) for things like Tabbouleh.)

Interesting challenge. Get him to season the salad lightly, and marinade the chops in red wine and olive oil before grilling them and you could well serve an Oregon Pinot. I like your idea of mushrooms.

That's HOW many salads? (Gazpacho is a "salad soup", the shrimps are almost served as a salad, then salad with the chops and a salad course?) Interesting and an interesting menu, but may I VERY tentatively suggest that you have one or two salads too many. How about a nice quiche, asparagus and blue cheese, for example? (OK, I'll shut up!)

I'm in complete agreement with Dale. Chese/red wine is often a very difficult match. SOME cheeses go very well, but soft cheeses almost never with red wine. To (vastly over)generalise, white goes with more cheeses then red, and sweet or off dry with more than dry, but all depends upon the particular cheeses.

Would this be any particular berry, "oregon berry" as in lingon or cloud, or is it an assortment of well known soft fruits like strawberries, raspberries etc? You'd need a wine with a fair amount of acidity, so (I've not drunk one) a LH Sauvignon might have it. Alternatively (Vino could say if he knows of one) a semi-dry sparkler might do well. Not too sweet, and it might even arrive with the cheese and finish with the pud.

Typically, such recipes use a somewhat sweet and not very hot chipotle glaze. I'd guess that the dominant flavors will come from the tuna. I'd opt for a rosé sparkler, if such can be found.

Just a peevish comment here. I cannot stand the use of the term gazpacho as employed in the US. It usually means something cold and tomato-y, but covers a broad territory (not a problem in itself, but the idea that the true common element of a proper gazpacho is bread -- just as the common element of sushi is rice -- is lost on us). Choosing a wine to go with such things is virtually impossible without seeing an actual recipe, and often not even then.

Good point, especially given the spicing of the surrounding dishes. Perhaps a mushroom-based pasta dish would improve its standing in the meal...

I've had "Israeli couscous" before, though never in Israel. ;-) It's quite big and soft when compared to the N. African version, and I have no idea whether it's authentic or ersatz.

My guess, depending on the time of year, would be raspberries, blackberries, loganberries and/or marionberries. I wonder if anyone in Oregon does a LH Chenin Blanc?

Mark Lipton

p.s. I recently stumbled across your reply to Dave F in uk.f+w.i. Perhaps you should explain the difference between entropy and kinetic energy and the finer points of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. ;-)

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

Thanks very much for explaining/translating this menu.

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:38:48 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

You don't go for sherry then? I must say I felt it was quite an inspired thought (small moue of disappointment).

Be my guest!!

Oops, I just fell into the trap of assuming that American and English were the same language (silly me). No, actually, I fell into a trap of presuming that one man's gaspacho is another man's gazpacho, even when separated by

(not a problem in itself, but the

common element of sushi is rice -- is lost on us). Choosing a wine to go with such things is virtually impossible without seeing an

You know, I'm currently having a monster battle on frc over boeuf bourguignon, I've had the temerity to suggest that it ought to contain beef and burgundy and that madiran simply doesn't do. There really IS something to be said for some care over the use of names. Oh dear. That said, I find it hard to imagine ANY Gaspacho such as I've had, with such crab such as I've had (though I'm looking forward to the chance of gorging myself on Dungeness Crab, which I've never tried, this fall), so I should perhaps have been a little suspicious.

Thanks. I am left wondering exactly what its purpose is, in the context of the flow of the menu. I should have said earlier that I find the thought of a somewhat Italianate Pinot Gris perfectly appropriate with the dish.

(this is a particular bugbear of mine! I HATE the American misuse of this French word. Entrée _means_ entry or start, and NOT main course. But normally I'm a good boy in the cause of cross atlantic harmony).

Chuckle...

I wonder if it isn't cracked wheat then.

Yup, that would be fine too. In Europe I'd look to see if I couldn't find a Crémant de Vouvray demi-sec.

Oops. I'm a little testy with the gentleman, who insists on advising industrial rules and regulations in home cooking, and cannot seem to understand common sense. He reads about obscure _highly_ rare bacteria and then seeks to scare everyone with them.

I thought about invoking Maxwell's imp, certainly. Though the difference between simmering and boiling is one where over 70% of writers get it wrong, so one can't REALLY blame Dave for falling into THAT trap, given his propensity for traps generally. I even thought of explaining the charming concept that at any one moment, a saucepan of cold water could - hypothetically - suddenly divide itself into a block of ice in the bottom and a cloud of steam at the top, without doing ANY violence to the laws of physics, even if it were to be VERY far out in left field of any probability curve!

Hi, Ian - At the risk of being obvious, how about serving this dish with a good Sake? That ought to be surefire with _any_ sauce or glaze - as well as with none at all.

Apparently you haven't eaten butternut squash lately, Ian. I find it to be quite rich and sweet - sort of like pumpkin, but IMO better. Hardly bland, anyway. This dish sounds pretty good to me, but I'd try to figure out a way to work smoked ham hocks into it. ;^D Pinot Gris should be good with it.

I'm not going to comment on the remainder of the courses. Just my 2¢ worth...

Tom S

Oh, dear! What have I done now? :P Actually, I find that match fascinating and would be happy to put it into effect should I ever be presented with such a dish. But, as I could not offer any insight into that match, I decided to offer up my own choice, humble though it be.

Well, I've never had gazpacho in the UK, so I can hardly imagine what that version might consist of. As I said, around here it's usually mostly cold tomato juice with assorted flavorants, and a far cry from the few gazpachos I've had in Spain.

Well, there's your mistake, Ian: actually thinking that names mean something. Postmodernism has obviously been lost on your antediluvian aesthetics! ;-)

Dungeness crab is OK with me in whatever form it may come, though purist that I am I'll take it steamed with drawn butter if I can (with a top Chablis at hand). However, as part of a mixed marriage (Jean having grown up on that other coast of the US) I have learned to appreciate the savory delights of the blue claw crab of the Atlantic seaboard and must abashedly confess to preferring it on a taste basis, though Dungeness is a treat for its size and convenience (cracking 6 blue claws to make a meal is trying, if ultimately rewarding).

Oregon Pinot Gris is more akin to NZ versions: fruity, crisp, often oaked and fairly round. Most Italian versions are more tart and lean in my experience.

Yes, we've spoken of this before. What a strange perversion of its intended meaning. I think it was you who speculated that it arose from the English usage of it to mean an entry to the main part of the meal (apologies if it wasn't you).

Nope. Burgul aka bulgar wheat aka ala is well known to me. What I'm talking about is spherical, very soft (when fully hydrated) and ~0.5 cm in diameter. It's a pasta, basically, if one that no Italian would recognize as such.

ROFL! I actually know his name from my anti-spamming activities, but he's got quite a "following" in uk.local.yorkshire, I do believe...

I think that, in general, most home cooks tend to "simmer" at a low boil, just as they tend to "sauté" at medium-low heat. Just as restaurants tend to serve their red wines too warm and their whites too cool...

And thereby actually bring the true meaning of entropy into the discussion. Brilliant! From what I saw of that thread, several of the participants who think themselves educated about physics need to reacquaint themselves with the work of Ludwig Boltzmann, and learn how relate a macroscopic property like temperature of a liquid to a microscopic property like kinetic energy/molecular velocity and follow that up with Boltzmann's mammoth contributions to statistical thermodynamics. Ah, well. That's not my battle to fight! ;-)

Cheers! Mark Lipton

Whew, substantive postings, I must read them again more closely. But this caught my eye --

"Mark Lipton" in message news: snipped-for-privacy@eudrup.ude...

This is a good case. I will argue that people in the US who read about cooking (besides the celebrity best-seller of the week) do run into this conflict soon. (British-isles English also maintains the traditional casual sense of "French" salad dressing, same thing it meant in the US, still does in most US cookbooks before, maybe, 1975, which is a vinaigrette; whoever introduced the insidious sugar and tomato paste into recent US bottled dressings under that name did not ask for leave to do so.)

Thus people from the US boarding, say, British Air aeroplanes and offered "French" dressing have been known to reply "US or UK sense" and the servers have nodded understandingly and clarified. Same for server queries in some restaurants as to whether a particular dish is to be an "Entrée" version -- there the ambiguity surfaces exactly. An argument for plain language, if any were needed ...

I thought that one or more common reference French cookbooks available in translations did chart the course of Entrée in this sense, but I have not done my homework on that. Applaud the natural confluence, anyway, of love of food and love of words. (Pop quiz: Which poet "composed a salad and ate it" ?)

According to Larousse Gastronomique, which gives example menus of grand dinners from various periods, it names a course served perhaps third in sequence, after soup and fish (or substitutes) and before the rôt (poultry or game). It might well be a roast meat with sauce.

This seems to give authority to the idea that the complained-of usage is genuinely French, despite the normal meaning of the word, and not an English corruption.

--brian

Salut/Hi Brian Boutel,

Welcome to the madhouse! Isn't this your first time of posting here?

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:22:37 +1200, tu disais/you said:-

Startig by answering Mark, Sorry Brian

I know... I can't help it and I know I should be more tolerant.

I seem to remember this de(riv~vi)ation being proposed, and have the vaguest recollection of it being one of our New England contingent who suggested it.

Yup. Though one has to be extremely cautious about Larousse when translated into English/American. I've got an edition with several mistakes, some of which are due to it being translated and "pruned" for the American reader.

Err. Yes, I see what you're getting at. Though if I may correct you slightly, it's not "roast meat" in a sauce, but "meat" in a sauce. If that sounds like nit-pickery then I apologise, but there are many dishes like Coq au Vin, Venison Salmis and so on, where a meat is cooked in wine, for example, and I think it is this kind of dish that is meant. You're absolutely right that in a classical menu, the "Entree" was used in that way. A meal could well have an "Hors d'oeuvre" meaning literally "outside the work" Ie, not really counting as the meal. It might well be followed by a fish course, and then as you suggest an Entree.

With the simplification of classical french Haute Cuisine menus in the early

So today, in this area, we often have something like veal sweetbreads (in a yummy sauce) in a puff pastry shell, or wild mushrooms in between puff pastry (again), or in a filo pastry "purse", served as "Entrées". I should in fairness say that the use of Coq au vin as an entree is virtually unknown, I guess nowadays. So, yes there's a blurring, and given the cavalier way most french people and most french chefs treat their gastronomic and culinary traditions, it's not surprising. I'm a self confessed pedant, purist and traditionalist when it comes to menu planning and naming.

For a meal I'm planning for an event in June, to be cooked in a hotel owned by friends, for example, I'm hoping for a meal like this.

Soup:- (Consommé or possibly a cream) Fish :- Turbot - cooked fairly simply (european turbot is one of the "great fishes". Entree, probably a sauced chicken or guinea fowl Main dish:- Grilled lamb chops (two/three spring vegetables) sauced Cheeses Dessert:- birthday cake

This gives good rein to having a fair range of nice wines, too.

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:54:29 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Interesting!

as they tend to "sauté" at medium-low heat. Just as restaurants tend to serve their red wines too warm and their whites too cool...

Yup, but as a resident pedant, I need to point out the truth!

saucepan of cold water could -

Brilliant! From what I saw of that thread, several of the participants who think themselves educated about physics need to reacquaint

Yeah, well.... I'm not really there to teach them physics or physical chemistry! So I contented myself with going through a couple of (im)pertinant elevation of boiling point calculations, thus completely demolishing poor old Dave! I also threatened him with you!

And _guess_ where I found some lovely info?

microscopic property like kinetic energy/molecular velocity and follow that up with Boltzmann's mammoth contributions to statistical thermodynamics. Ah, well. That's not my battle to fight! ;-)

Were I 40 years closer to the time I learnt all that stuff, and had I actually found it interesting (all I was really keen on was playing in the Lab - that's why I became a chef), I might take their education in hand. However, I'm not, and I didn't, and there's every chance they wouldn't believe me anyway!

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:39:21 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Well they DO happen sometimes!

Absolutely. I have been part of a truly international english language cookng discussion on Fido, and one thing that never ceases to amaze me, is just how FAR apart our languages are, when relating to cooking and food. It's one reason why (impishly) I insist on pointing out that the denizens of the USA speak "American", and (arrogantly) insist on claiming that as an Englishman, the language _I_ speak is the only one entitled to be called "English".

The great problem is that you may understand my "plain language" perfectly simply, but incorrectly, because _your_ pint is not _my_ pint and _your_ proof isn't _my_ proof!

Actually, I find that a love of words is more a mark of high intelligence (however measured, and without any implication of greater value or greater merit) then anything else, and that high intelligence also tends to be displayed by a heightened interest in all things that give pleasure. I'd extend this thesis further in saying that a fairly high level of intelligence is an essential prequisite for in interest in "intellectual" pursuits. I've found there's a type of mind which truly enjoys coruscating and enjoy meeting and admiring them.

One of the saddest characteristics that the USA and the UK have in common, is a deep suspicion of intellect and intelligence, to the extent that no President of the USA ever dares show his/her intelligence. I blame Hollywood for this, with their archetypical bone headed bone fisted hero, who proves the rightness of his/her cause by beating in the heads of the archetypical intelligent villain. This villain is, of course, nearly always an effete European, driving an effete European car, who pontificates with erudition (entirely erroneously) about the delights of the '68 Ch Lafite Rothschild (poured from a clearly burgundy shaped bottle).

Hold your horses there, Ian. I'll bet the inhabitants of _South_ America (who speak primarily either Spanish or Portuguese) would give us just as hard a time if we in the USA were to call our version of English "American" as you do for our calling it "English".

Maybe we need another name for it, but in the meantime we'll default to "English" - as opposed to "The King's English". ;^)

Whoa! "Coruscating"? Good word. I had to look that one up. :^)

Hey, wait a minute! What about three of our most highly regarded _heroes_? James Bond, Sherlock Holmes and our California Governator are all _Europeans_. Furthermore, these days most of our villains are arab terrorists - not "effete European" posers.

Our studio executives insist on absolute authenticity in their productions. What you see these days on TV and at the movies here in the USA is as close to documentary as it gets! ;^D

Tom S

"Ian Hoare" in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I agree (by the way, that issue does not seem to be limited to food). And you did not even mention the many cheerful speakers in the US unaware that their usage of certain vocabulary like corn, eggplant, zucchini is nonstandard; that most of the English around the world has other names (in those particular examples, of course, respectively maize, aubergine, and various -- UK "vegetable marrows" I always found delightful).

None of this however was my object. By "plain language" I questioned getting twisted around at restaurants over (for whatever historical reasons) US-English speakers adopting a French word differently from the way UK-English speakers adopted the same French word. It is at least theoretically possible for Anglophone restaurants to use idiom like "main course," exotic though that may sound.

GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION...

Appetizer

The saké idea is great. Just so happens there's a kura in Oregon called SakéOne that produces under the Momokawa and Moonstone labels. Their Junmai Ginjo Medium-Dry "Diamond" would be a nice pairing, if the chipotle is mild. If it's a little more intense, I would say perhaps serve the same wine as for the soup course.

Soup

Pasta

Fish

This one's a toughy, since really you need a red in this spot to break up the wine menu a bit. A nice Rioja would be great, BUT... hehe An interesting experiment could be the 2001 Eola Hills Marechal Foch. If you're OK with extending the whites some, try the 2001 Argyle Willamette Valley Chardonnay. There's a hint of lime in the finish, plus some nice acidity that, combined with the Dijon clone traits, should be a knockout pairing with this course.

RIGHT HERE A NICE COURSE WITH SOME MUSHROOMS WOULD BE GREAT, like a galette of early morels. THAT WOULD LEND ITSELF WELL TO OREGON'S FAMOUS PINOTS. If your friend goes for it, look to J. K. Carriere, Patricia Green, etc. AWESOME boutique Pinot producers that most people will not be familiar with.

Entrée

Salad

I completely agree. Serve a nice mineral water with this one. The course serves as a palate cleanser all on it own. A little bit of Belgian endive, escarole or frisée would be nice with it - bitter greens are digestives!

Cheese

Same wines as the dessert course. Really depends on the cheeses, too. Ruby port or a late-harvest white with some zing would be nice with one of Bandon's aged cheddars. Maybe some of that left-over Early Muscat business with Blue Heron's brie. Another would be the 1997 Eola Hills LBV Cabernet Port.

Dessert

Another interesting option for this course, depending on the Oregon liquor laws, might be the Framboise Eau-de-Vie from Clear Creek Distillery in Portland.

Hope this all helps! If you'd like more info, feel free to email me at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com.

Kyle in Seattle

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:43:53 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Absolutely. I remember driving on I (something or other) in NY state when we came to a bridge. Just before it was a sign "Beware, ice on pavement" I frowned and asked Jacquie "I wonder why they warn you about ice on the pavement, when we're twenty miles from the nearest town and pedestrians aren't allowed on freeways anyway. All most odd."

Because _your_ pavement is my road (surface) and _my_ pavement is _your_ sidewalk. While I was perfectly well aware of the meaning and equivalent of the word sidewalk, somehow it hadn't occurred to me that my word for it had it's own meaning and usage!

No, although of course well aware of it. I've found that many of my american (oops - for Tom S "USAn") friends get a little twitchy when it's pointed out that many such names are exclusive to the USA, with almost all other anglophone countries using a different name. So I tend not to make too much of a thing of it. But that it should be so is not surprising really, as most of these other countries kept their English connection (dominance if you will) much longer, and will therefore have met these products via the UK.

Well, I have to say that I feel that if the members of a country; USA, UK or Outer Mongolia; want to use expressions form another, and in this context, french words for menu planning or food preparation, then that's fine, as long as they respect French usage. (I could add that the same applies - in spades - to the French, who have a positive genius for borrowing words from Ameringlish and misusing them. "Walkie-talkie" with the 'ls firmly pronounced, "un apartement de grand standing" "le parking" (car park). "Tchatcher" (to chat) and so on.)

And indeed in my recipe databases, I classify such dishes as "main dish", with entrees (in the french sense) as "starters", reserving "appetizers" for nibbles or more substantial food, designed to be served with the pre-prandial drinks, or standing on their own with cocktails.

Ian Hoare wrote:

Another confusing issue is whether the entrée is defined as a course served at a particular point in the sequence of the meal, or defined by the kind of food it consists of, or involves both. Also, one has to distinguish between a fixed dinner menu and an a la carte menu, where there are several choices for each course. An a la carte menu here in NZ usually labels the "starters" as entrées, and NZers going to the US for the first time get confused. My recollection of English a la carte menus (I haven't lived in the UK for a long time and visit only every 3 or 4 years, so this may be not current usage) is that entrées may be listed as a section of the mains, and grills and poultry listed separately. In those menus, entrées seemed, to my struggling memory, to consist mostly of roast meats, although I'm not wedded to this notion. Perhaps, if one had the time, money and stomach for it, one might eat an entrée and another main, in that sequence, which reflects the original French sense of the word, but normally, one would not, and the entrée section would be treated simply as part of the listing of main courses. So perhaps it is the simplification of menus that you refer to, that has resulted in the loss of the entrée in its original sense as a distinct course, and caused the name to become associated with an adjacent course, either earlier (justified by the common meaning of the word) or later, (justified by the kind of food).

--brian

I avoid all of this by announcing at the beginning of dinner that I follow the Italian "antipasto, primi, secundi" method. And then I serve just whatever I damn well please.