aluminum to cook with only?

Lots of BS out there about aluminum. However, I don't use it for the reason that it's too soft to clean with abrasive scrub pads, and won't tolerate caustic cleansers. I boil water in the aluminum pot that came with my cooker, but use SS for anything else. I know of no real reason not to use aluminum except the one I mention.

--arne

LOL, arne. BS to some.. cumulative effect concern to others. ... like drinking wine every day in ur fine, lead crystal wine glasses?

Gene

glasses?

The reason I've always had problems with theories about aluminum (Alzheimer's mainly) is that aluminum is so common in the environment it's hard to believe that we don't already have a huge tolerance to it. It's a common ingredient in dirt for goodness sakes, and I'm sure we've all eaten a lot of that (at least as children ;-). But like I said, I avoid it for other reasons.

--arne

I suppose our discussion may be OFF TOPIC for this usenet group. Would it be better for us to talk off-line? Or is this a subject of general interest to our winemaking community?

Regards, Gene

well, that's a start. boiling water is okay. now how about WINE? i need some personal experience here people! dangit, i'm short on cash and this is a deal that would really kick ass if ... if it won't screw my wine!

Saul

That is priceless logic, Arne. To begin with, we have yet to develop any tolerance for many "common ingredients" in dirt. For instance, I'd like to see how well wine would hold up in a tank made of lead, which is common in a lot of dirt.

Second, aluminum is an alloy, created by man this past century, so it is not just a common ingredient in dirt.... yet.

The main point is, there are some metals that should be kept away from wine (and beer) production. Aluminum is one on the list. I'd recommend to the op that he stick with glass or stainless steel for "cooking" his wine or beer.

clyde

Can we all pitch in a buck or two and buy this man a chemistry textbook?

Kevin

How long are you going to have the wine in the pot? The biggest problem is acid. Most liquids are OK in aluminum but acidic foods can cause reaction. For a few minutes it is probably OK, but I have no idea just how long you could safely expose it. Long cooked things like tomato sauce would take on a metallic taste. OTOH, a pot roast for 6 hours is OK, but there is not the acid.

The main point is, you have no credible scientific evidence to back that up. Give us some references to support your position.

And BTW, it's an element. It must be processed to retrieve it from its natural state, but it is still an element. If you don't know that, why should we believe you have any expertise on its medical effects?

Brian

You're quite right on that one Brian. The atomic symbol 'Al' kept looming in the sidelines of my brain while I wrote that yesterday, but for whatever reason it didn't surface.

Guess I shouldn't be online during harvest.

The comment from Arne: "it is so common in the environment it's hard to believe that we don't already have a huge tolerance to it" struck me wrong. I'll continue to criticize such logic, even if my arguments are lame.

I still wouldn't use it for winemaking, but I still don't have any references for you.

I'll go back to the cellar now.

clyde

Aluminum appears to be an inappropriate metal for wine use. Here are a couple of references.

"Aluminum hazes may develop......when wine is exposed to aluminum equipment." Yair Margalit, "Concepts in Wine Chemistry," page 320.

"...........at (aluminum) levels exceeding 5 mg/L, hazes, and undesirable changes in color, flavor and aroma may result." Zoecklein, et al, "Wine Analysis and Production," page 204.

"Copper and iron are the two most important metals causing haziness and deposits in wine and aluminum and calcium may occasionally be involved......." Bryce Rankine, "Making Good Wine," page 307.

"Aluminum should never be used for storage of wine." C.S. Ough, "Winemaking Basics," page 180.

Regards, Lum Del Mar, California, USA

These all sound like valid reasons to not use aluminium in winemaking. My objections were based on dredging up the unproven Alzheimer link, and also because beer brewing was included in the "do not use for" list. Many amateurs (myself included) use aluminum pots for their brewing, mine is for my mash tun. Our beers turn out just fine.

Brian

Why spend money?

Good. Then it won't matter anymore when you're dement by accumulation of Al. The Romans had a bit of a similar experience with lead vessels (but went for the taste instead and left it in there for a long time...)

Anyway, all the reasons are being told: the alu will dissolve in acids (which wine is pretty much), the more so with high temps. I would absolutely tell you off for storage!!!, but for a simple (quick) boil I doubt it will do you harm. Of course alu is ubiquitos, but eating dirt will not dissolve alu in there as it is in a completely different form than the pure metal.

My own personal exp: Cooking zuurkool (dutch) = Sauerkraut (german), cabbage preserved by acid, my mother's cooking pot suddenly started leaking. Now, it was an old and thin cooking pot, but nonetheless this clearly was the last drop.

Rene.

different

Are you proposing that ingesting metallic aluminum can lead to it's absorbtion without conversion to the same soluble compounds that aluminum in dirt would have to be converted to? Kindly explain this point in detail, as my 9 years of chemical education in college and graduate school didn't include this particular novelty.

BTW, were you aware that aluminum compounds are also an ingredient in many baked goods? Read the label sometime. Maybe you'd better avoid more things than you thought of before...

--arne

I am saying that alu can 'dissolve' in acids (like wine) which involves breaking up in ions. Alu as salts in dirt do not necessarily have to go in solution, otherwise rain water would have done that already. Your 9 years in college were ott imho if you didn't get that point.

No, didn't know, don't want to know everything horrible that our market economy throws up. Anyway, my point was that alu pots slowly dissolve in dilute acids, and I do not think any winemaker would want that happening.

Or much stronger acid as is in your digestive system? The one that I was discussing putting dirt through before? Really, I think you have a pretty hard case to prove here. Anyway, I'm tiring of the subject.

--arne

Time is the factor.

Really, I think you have