Campden VS Hot Water

My own response to this question, since I generally freeze most of my fruits before use, is that I defrost them totally and then treat with crushed and liquidised campdem tablets.

I have not boiled my fruits for over 20 years and do not like the taste of "boiled fruit" wines

Just my own way of doing things but I think you will find it to be the best practice!

Since the whole point of adding sulphites is to stun or kill unwanted yeasts and bacteria, if you pitch your yeast too soon after adding the sulphite you can delay or even prevent fermentation.

I add my sulphite and then wait until the next day to pitch the yeast (18 to 24 hours), giving the sulphite time to bind.

As far as whether or not to add it at all, your must can pick up yeasts and bacteria from the air--at first it will be protected by the CO2 released in the fermentation but once that slows down it will be susceptible. And adding the sulphite at that point could kill your wanted yeast and stick your fermentation.

You don't say anything about adding wine yeast. Are you depending on natural yeast for your fermentations? If so, there is no point in adding the campden/K metabisulfite. It will only slow the process. However, if you are using wine yeast, make a starter out of some of your juice a day or so ahead of thawing the bulk fruit. The starter will be fermenting fast by the time you add it to your main batch. It should take off immediately.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Hi Andie,

That is an interesting question you've brought up. What I must point out first of all though is that if you simply use the boiling water to thaw the fruit then the temperature of the fruit would be fairly constant at around 0 degrees celsius (32 farenheit) this is due to something called the 'latent heat of fusion.' What this means as it applies here is that unless you continue heating the fruit AFTER it has thawed (i.e. all the ice crystals within the fruit have melted), the temperature of the fruit will not get very high. You need to maintain a temperature in excess of about 50 degrees celsius (~122 F) in order to kill the yeasts - realistically a higher temperature would need to be used (many yeasts can survive for quite a while at relatively high temperatures).

If you are infact heating the fruit to perhaps 80 degrees celsius (176 F) or so, then I would think you could probably get away without using metabisulfite in the initial stage. Sulfur dioxide (as was pointed out above) primarily 'stuns' the wild yeast, hopefully long enough that your wine yeast can get a good head-start. Even though your must is 'unprotected' while it cools (before you add the wine yeast) any invasion of wild yeasts will still be on the backfoot against your more vigorous (and hopefully properly hydrated and prepared) wine yeast.

I hope this is of some use to you, I wish you the very best of luck,

Regards,

Michael

That's the answer I was looking for. It gives me a basis to work with. If I monitor the temp before I pitch my hydrated and proofed yeast, I can feel comfortable if the temp was high enough. Thanks.

I don't like using boiling water. If you want a faster yeast start then make a starter at the same time you add the meta to the must. In face, the must can be cold from the frozen fruit when you add it. Anyway, get the starter going good while the meta sits in the must for 12-24 hours then add the starter. It will go good.

Ray

You have to get tht fruit to a temp of at least 140 F to kill yeast off.

Just dumping boiled water on frozen fruit will most likely not pasturize it.

I always make a proofed yeast starter in a quart jar. I make sure it's going very good. Sometimes two days ahead and I always make sure it's working vigorously. And yet, if I use 1 Campden per gallon (6 to 15 gallon batches) it can take two or three days to really start. If we don't use Meta-bisulfite, such as in a batch of bananna wine where we boiled the banannas, the yeast became vigorous in minutes.

I'm with Trevor on this one. I see no good reason to boil the fruit. Fresh (or freshly thawed) fruit tastes better than cooked fruit, so why shouldn't it make better wine too?

If you're concerned about wild yeast, just use a large concentration of cultured yeast to overwhelm the wild.

Tom S

"tastes better" really comes down to preference. I take your point but I don't think it is really reasonable to say that the wine is better if it isn't boiled - sure a lot of the volatile esters and things are lost in the heating process - but at the same time it [the heat] is driving chemical reactions that introduce new/different flavour profiles.

Michael

Why not try it both ways using the exact same lot of fruit and recipe? Then you won't have to speculate or listen to what others tell you. You'll know yourself, and you might reach a conclusion you hadn't expected.

I've done a few such experiments on contentious issues. I barrel aged 1987 Rutherford Cabernet in new French and American oak barrels, side by side. Years later, comparative tasting revealed that although the American oak aged wine had a much more racy bouquet, the French aged wine was fuller on the palate and _tasted_ better.

Although Robert Mondavi and André Tchelistcheff had claimed that French oak was better, I had to find out _why_ for myself. As a result I've concluded that a mixture of the two is probably best. You might reach a similar conclusion regarding cooked vs. uncooked fruit. Sometimes it's all about complexity.

Tom S

We don't "boil" the fruit. We would use boiling water poured over the fruit to raise the temp. high enough to kill wild yeast.

The only fruit I ever boiled, even for a short time, was banannas.

Andie Z

Yeah, I understood that - but I still think you should try doing it both ways. I believe your concerns about wild yeast are exaggerated, and that even minimal heating such as you do damages the fruit to some extent. Try tasting flash Pasteurized orange juice against the same stuff that isn't Pasteurized. That's quite analogous.

Tom S