Problems with my Sangioveses

Use tartaric only, it's more natural to the wine and will bring the pH down better that anything short of phosphoric.

You already had your most important tool (your senses). Now that you have some test equipment too don't give up on tasting and smelling things as a heads up. It should taste a little flabby right now. Always use your sense of taste as a reality check especially when adding acid. 0.6% may taste tart, it may not.

Maybe do this: Figure out what you need for 0.6% but add it in 1/5 increments and taste each time after stirring it in well. If you overshoot you can pull it back out with cold stabilization but why bother unless the pH is still too high. I doubt it will be after the first or second addition.

I have bottled reds at pH of 3.85 and not had issues 3 to 4 years out as a heads up. I don't sulfite over 60 PPM free for any reason. It's a calculated risk, but it's worked out well so far. You may be happy with the taste at 0.5 % TA as a heads up. pH < 3.6 is ideal, but reds seem easier to drink younger at the high end of pH.

Hope that helps.

Joe

A formula you can use for the recommended sulfite addition for wines above a pH of 3.0 is:

(pH - 3.0) * 100 = mg/L sulfite level recommended

Higher than 50 mg/L and you run the danger that the sulfite smell can be detected in the wine. So, substituting this maximum level in to the equation:

(pH - 3.0) * 100 = 50 mg/L pH = 50/100 + 3 pH = 3.5

So, in order to get your sulfite addition necessary to protect the wine down to a reasonable level that you don't run the risk of having sulfur on the nose, you will need a pH reduction of at least 0.5

For tartaric acid, 1 gm/L will reduce the pH by 0.1, so you'll need at least

5 gm/L or : 5 gm/L * 3.79 L/gallon = 18.95 gm/gallon, if my math is correct.

But that correction is going to raise your TA by 0.5% (with 3.8 g/gal of tartaric acid raising TA by 0.10%)! Desired ranges for TA for dry red wines are 0.55% to 0.65% (studies have shown that the taste of wine correlates more with TA than pH).

This leaves you in a bad situation ... the adjustment you need to the pH to get to a level that you can make a satisfactory sulfite addition will leave your wine with a TA so high you might not enjoy it.

What are your options? One option is to go ahead an make the acid addition to raise the pH, taste the wine, and see if you can live with that level of acidity. If the acidity is just too much, plan on adding sugar to balance the acidity.

If you must have a dry wine, let's say that means you don't want a TA higher than 0.70%. That allows you a 0.30% increase, corresponding to 11.4 g/gal of tartaric acid, or 3 g/L, equal to a 0.3 reduction in pH, leaving you at a pH of 3.7

(pH - 3.0) * 100 = (3.7 - 3.0) * 100 = 70 mg/L sulfite addition. So, at a

0.70% TA (still a bit acidic for a dry red) you'll need a 70 mg/L sulfite addition (into the range where you'll certainly run the risk of sulfite on the nose). If you can live with a 0.80% TA wine, then you can get down to a 60 mg/L sulfite addition.

I can say this: I can enjoy a dry red wine at 0.80% TA, although it's about the upper end limit on TA for me. I think what I would do is plan on a slightly sweet wine, and aim for a 0.85% TA with a 55 mg/L sulfite addition. After the adjustment, sweeten to taste to balance the acidity. If your wine has gone through a MLF, you'll need to sweeten with something non-fermentable (maybe glycerin?).

You best option might be if you could find another wine with exactly the right pH/TA characteristics to blend it with, but the chances of that might be low.

Appologies in advance if any of my math or conversion factors are off above... please check it yourself before going ahead. Also, this assumes your grapes/must are not already sulfited -- if you already have a sulfite level, you'll need to adjust by that. To make that adjustment, take the teaspons of sulfite you've already added to the wine: 1tsp sulfite = about 6 or 7 gm (you could weigh yours ... I weighed mine and got 7 gm) Most sulfite is 57% strength, so 1tsp * 7 g/tsp * 1000 mg/g * 0.57 = 3990 mg/tsp * (# tsps added to wine) / (# Liters of wine) = mg/L of sulfite

For example, if I have added 1/4 tsp of sulfite to 5 gallons of wine: 5 gals * 3.79 L/gal = 18.95 L 3990 mg/tsp * 0.25 tsp / 18.95 L = 52.64 mg/L (same as 52.64 PPM) Which validates the rule of thumb of about a 1/4 tsp sulfite addition per 5 gallons of wine.

Jon [Check out my winemaking homepage

One more thing I was going to metion, if you were diluting the sample in your acid test to determine TA so that you could more clearly see the color change from the phenothalien solution, did you know you can take a much more accurate TA measurement using your pH meter?

Do the titration with the acid test kit as normal, but with your pH meter (previously calibrated in a 7.0 pH buffer solution) in the sample. Instead of relying on when the color change takes place, the titration is complete when your pH meter reads a pH of 8.2. Make sure to swirl the beaker after each addition of sodium hydroxide, and to add the sodium hydroxide more slowly the closer you get to 8.2 (since pH is measured on a logarithmic scale, the higher the pH the more of a change, exponentially, the same addition of the sodium hydroxide base will make).

If you haven't already, I would take another TA reading using this method to get as accurate a TA as possible (detecting color change with red wine can often introduce a lot of innaccuracy in the TA measurement).

Jon [Check out my winemaking homepage

As Joe said, use tartaric. There's no way to predict how much acid will move the pH how far because it depends on the wine's buffering capability. Also, there's no way to predict at what pH the wine will taste balanced - but there's a good way to do what you're contemplating.

Do a trial on a bottle first. Adjust it to pH 3.5 with tartaric (noting the volume of wine and the amount of tartaric it took to get to 3.5 pH). Put it and a similar size bottle of unadjusted wine (not too full, now!) into the freezer overnight. It's best to use plastic bottles for this. Next day, thaw the wine if it has frozen and decant the clear liquid from the white-ish sediment.

Taste both samples, side by side. The adjusted sample will probably be too tart; the control sample will be so flat you could slip it under a door.

Mix the two samples in various combinations (noting the ratio of the components) until you find a combination that tastes good. It's best if you do this with a friend who has a reliable palate so you can compare notes. Once you find the ratio that's pleasant, you can scale the amount of tartaric to add to the entire batch. If your algebraic skills aren't so hot get someone else to do the math for you, or at least check your numbers.

You'll need to chill out the excess bitartrate from the wine after adding the tartaric, but you need to do that anyway after making an acid adjustment. HTH.

Tom S

Thank you. I'll give that a try.

These are my first wines I've ever done.

This was fresh juice from Lodi Gold. It was supposed to be balanced when I got it (so says the person I got it from). During/after fermentation what can effect TA and pH?

I have three Regina Juices and the buckets all say that they come at .6 TA for reds and .55 for White if I remember correctly.

Of course I didn't check any of these before hand because I didn't have a pH meter or acid kit.

Tom S wrote:

Marty, They are both reliable manufacturers, I have more experience with Regina than Lodi Gold, we can't get it in Pgh anymore. Those TA values are minimums as a heads up. Acids change during fermentation, they usually go up for me. If you still have the buckets just post the variety and lot number, I can check to see if I made that and tell you what mine came out at and what I have done so far if we are making the same things. Not that it matters now, they are where they are. I made several Regina's this year mostly reds.

They type of yeast used can affect TA, the growing area affects it; these are grown in very hot areas (for grapes) and usually come out with high sugar, lower acid. It's not unusual and you can fix this with ease.

Joe

Joe

The buckets don't have lot numbers on them that I can see.

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Where's Pgh?

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Pittsburgh, PA. The lot number is stamped on the side of the bucket in ink. Joe

I'll check again, but it probably got washed off.

You know you can get Lodi just over the border in Ohio? That's where this came from. $40/bucket. My friend made a road trip out there. Probably got 40-50 buckets.

If > Pittsburgh, PA. The lot number is stamped on the side of the bucket in > ink.

This brings up another question.

They drove to chicago in the back of a pickup. 6+ hour drive in September, which was relatively warm this year.

How long can juice stand being warm like that? It was bubbling when I got it.

Chicago area I can reg> I'll check again, but it probably got washed off.

Hi Marty, $60 is pretty high for anything in a small bucket here. We get Regina

6 gallon pails for between 35 to $50. I would be interested in the Lodi Gold source in Ohio. We have 2 big suppliers still so there is compeittion. I'm not saying Regina is not worth $60, just that we got it a little cheaper here this year.

I'll get a list of stuff I made this year together andpost it with initial values.

Joe