viticulture advice

I can't offhand point you to a website but here in the Mid Atlantic the short answer would be Yes, control the vigorous growth.

I was at a "Field Day" meeting of the Maryland Grape Growers Association (MGGA) recently and the Viticulturists there said a "rule of thumb" is that if someone is on the other side of the row across from you, you should thin, position shoots and leaf pull in order to see the color of the clothing they are wearing - not to the point of being able to specifically identify them.

Shoot length should be on the order of 4 feet long and leaf pulling should be predominately on the East side to allow early morning sun to penetrate.

I don't know what trellising system you are using but for most it is also important to keep the shoots vertical and not let them cross over. The cross over will happen very easily and it is amazing how long some of the crossover shoots are and how much shading they provide.

Here are a few good sites:

I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000 hits.

Paul

There are great videos on viticulture on youtube.com. Also

news: snipped-for-privacy@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

I think the OP was asking about "summer" pruning. The references you provided are good but do not address the issue of vigorous growth and what to do about it during the summer - unless I missed something - which is entirely possible in my chronologically advantaged state.

We have a similar problem (excessive growth) here in the Mid Atlantic. This year has seen incredible growth because of the wet spring.

My advice for "summer" pruning is to:

Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet long

Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not allow to cross over each other

Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the eastern side.

Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can "see through it". This does not mean denuding the vines but merely to the point where you can tell if there is someone standing on the other side of the vine from you - NOT to the point you can identify them :-). This will allow air circulation which is needed in areas of excessive vigor.

All this information came from the Maryland Grape Growers Association (MGGA) summer field education program at a local vineyard and winery and was presented by several viticulturalist from Maryland and out of state.

One additonal thing worth mentioning for vigorous growth areas:

Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur pruning. Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old" wood. The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). Old wood provides a home for fungi. Vineyards around here that have gone to cane pruning have experienced a lot less problem with fungus. It is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines since you do not have a lot of shoots from old wood (which are non-productive) to prune away. I have gone to cane pruning this year and I am very pleased with the results.

There has always been a lot of controversy about vine and row spacing but some of the new plantings around here are going to 4 feet between vines and 7 foot row spacing. They are aiming for 12 buds per vine. This will typically work out to a yield of about 3 tons per acre or a little more depending on variety. This is a good crop load around here for producing quality wines.

the other Paul

Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste, but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves don't feed the berries anyway.

To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes.

To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too. It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting. When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when I mow the grassy aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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Nature really does not really give a flip whether the grapes are "ripe" in terms of winemaking "ripeness". Nature's only motive is perpetuation of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More grapes mean more food for birds and a greater chance for a few seeds to survive after the birds eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds and help spread the species.

and results in vegetative character to the wine.

I agree totally and this is why I think timing of hedging is important. Hedging will promote lateral growth so it is important that it is done before ripening commences and give a chance for the new leaves to be exporters.

If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet long. I have not heard anyone say what should be done with 20 long shoots - except hedge them.

Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth of the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also is suppose to help prevent deer damage.

I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor the vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a micro climate in the vineyard similar to that of a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY labor extensive - even for a small backyard vineyard.

What you effectively end up with using your trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which is not unreasonable. There has been some research done that indicates that 4 feet is about the ideal length but I think that most of this research was done in California where drip irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor.

Very true.

Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it easier to maintain the vineyard.

Thanks for your input, Mike.

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"Laterals produce grapes. "

No they don't . Not sure what part of the vine you think is a lateral but laterals don't produce grapes..

Mike:

It sounds like you are growing grapes in soil too wet for optimal grape growing. In that case I guess you have no choice. I am lucky t have a well drained sandy soil where excessive moisture is never the problem. Not sure if the canopy is your only problem when it comes to fungus, your environment seems to be just as guilty in causing fungus problems. I would keep the grass short so it doesn't trap moisture under the long grass.

Bob

Mike,

One more thought. When grapes grow, they usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are the laterals that you should keep. Hedge the vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot and hedge off any laterals that form from those hedges. If the laterals formed by the vine close to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 feet on each lateral , there should be 2, and hedge off all other laterals formed because of the hedging below( I'm assuning high cordon). In a well drained soil you would have these problems but it is what it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt. ;)

Bob

"Besides, those leaves don't feed the berries anyway. "

Oh yeah they do. They are actually the most important on the shoot.

Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough wrote:

Bob,

I'm referring to the basal leaves, by which I mean the ones between the old wood and the fruit. What I've read, based on things like radioisotope tracers, indicates that the photosynthates produced by these leaves moves rootward in the stem, away from the fruit. If you can point me toward something which says otherwise, I'd love to read it.

They get pulled about midsummer to let some sun in around the fruit.

Regarding the wetness of my growing site, you're absolutely right: too wet, too fertile, a bit too little sun. Sigh...

Bob,

I wish I could, but the growth is so vigorous that shading is an issue. In spite of that, I've been thinking of trying something along those lines anyway. Like keeping a limited number of nearby, hedged laterals to increase the leaf count per cluster, as you suggest. It might solve more problems than it creates.

I once read that the question we should ask isn't "What should I do next?" but "What shouldn't I do next?"

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep this post.

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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Uh, care to come to central Maryland. I can show you a LOT of vineyards that have laterals with grapes - until they prune them off. I have some now that I need to prune them off. Come visit me. BTW, the definition of a "lateral is a shoot off the main shoot - a lateral.

Where do you live? What varieties are you growing? I am always willing to learn from the experience of others. Please provide me with more details.

Dah, yes, for "optimal" that is true. I do not live in California or the Southwest or the semi desert areas of Oregon or Washington state.

I, also have a very well drained soil but I can not control the rainfall.

By "environment" if you include rainfall and humidity, yes that is true but I can not control this. By "environment" you if you include canopy management - yes indeed, I and other growers do all we can- including leaf pulling and hedging.

My vineyard is a backyard vineyard. I have a 40 inch strip with NO vegetation in the row. I HAND cultivate. In between the rows is grass which I mow the same as I do the rest of the yard.

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For the very initial development yes, but for more than 60 to 90 days please read "General Viticulture" by Winkler, Cook, Kliewer and Lider- one of the clasics in Viticulture - and get back with me on this topic. There are more references on this subject. Please provide me with contrary references.

Where do you live? What varieties are you growing?

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So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the main shoot to provide even ripening? This does not make sense to me. Please explain.

Those are the laterals that are going to provide the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you sure you want to remove all of them?

References appreciated, please.

Please provide location and varieties you are growing.

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