Ale or Lager, I'm confused

Beers above a certain alcohol percentage have to be labelled as ales or malt liquors in some states. Or some such nonsense. ;^)

Best regards, Bill PS: Got that info from Brewser83 last month.

I have been collecting beer cans since 1977 and the different state laws require certain beers to be labeled in certain ways. In one state "ice beer" may be listed as beer with alcohol by volume. In another state it may be labeled as ale, or have the alcohol listed by weight. This usually happens on higher alcohol brews. I picked up a 5 liter can of Konig-pils that was labeled as malt liquor (that was in Kentucky). I hope that helps.

Yeah in Texas it's an alcohol content thing. Totally stupid and only contributes to the people's confusion. I forget what the percentage is but anything over a certain abv% has to be labelled an ale. That's why Hofbrauhaus Original Lager says ale in small letters on the label. Dumb.

_Randal

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:51:16 -0500, Randal Chapman wrote (in article ):

It's dumber than you think. When referring to Ale or Lager all your referencing is the type of yeast that is used. Ale is a top fermenting yeast. Lager is a bottom fermenting yeast. Every beer is either an Ale or a Lager. The style of beer refers to the difference inside those two types of yeast. It's easy to understand except it seems for politicians who have trouble understanding anything.

It has nothing to do with style, alcohol content or ingredients. You can use exactly the same ingredients to make an Ale & a Lager. It just depends on what yeast you use. Even when using the same ingredients the yeast will determine the overall flavors of your final product. Brew a batch and split it in two. Use an Ale yeast in one and a lager yeast in the other. You'll be surprised at the total difference in character between the two.

The Ale yeasts will give you more aroma and after taste while a Lager yeast will give you more opening flavor with a clean after taste and very little aroma.

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:48:36 GMT, oDDz Bodtkin wrote, in an amusing display of pedantry:

Even the yeast!

Guess what "lager" yeast can do at warm temperatures? Positively "ale" like, I tells ya. It's amazing.

Usually. See above. Drink Anchor Steam - or remember Rainier Ale, back in the good ol' days. Be amazed.

Really? If you warm-ferment them both, and don't cold-condition either one, they'll be totally different? You sure about that?

So a lager yeast won't behave similarly to ale yeast at warm ferment temps, eh? Wow, you know so much about brewing. Really a lot!

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:43:16 -0500, Oh, Guess wrote (in article ):

Are you a complete idiot or just a moron? Never mind it's obvious your just an asshole that's never done any brewing.

PLONK!

Can't trim your post or answer the question, asshat? Questions too tough for you?

Wrong. And it's pretty obvious you don't know half as much as you think you do about the subject, and can't defend your assertions, ya big pussy.

Aw, I'm crushed. Your stunning knowledge of brewing would have contributed so much to the world, even if it's lacking in a few areas.

You're on the right track, but it's not quite as cut-and-dried as you presented. There are top-fermenting lager yeasts. There are bottom-fermenting lager yeasts. From what I understand, yeast researchers and taxonomists have stopped using that as a distinguishing characteristic.

To get really technical, the differences in the yeasts tend to evolve around the ability to digest a particular sugar, raffinose IIRC. And, in general, ale yeasts go dormant at temperatures lager yeasts are able to thrive (there are exceptions, of course, like Kölsch and altbier yeasts).

It's better to use brewing technique, as well as final flavor profiles, to define ale v. lager. Ales are generally - but not always - brewed at warmer temps. Lagers are generally brewed at cooler temps, with a longish period of cold conditioning before going into serving containers (kegs, bottles, etc.). The temperature differences generally lead to more esters (fruity aromas, typically) in warm-fermented beers than in cold-fermented ones.

Actually, no. There are beers fermented with no addition of yeast whatsoever, fermented instead by various wild yeasts that fall into neither the ale or lager camp. Lambics are the best-known examples, but there are other small regional beers that don't fall into ale or lager categories. And there are a few that straddle precisely between them (steam, Kölsch, alt).

Again, temperature's more crucial. You could split a single pilsner wort into two, pitch the same yeast, and end up with vastly different beers if one's fermented at 68F and the other at 50F.

Likewise, you'll be surprised at the total difference if you use the same yeast and brew the two halves at vastly different temps.

There's a lot more to beer's aroma than yeast. Hops and malt, just to name a couple. In general, lagers will have a cleaner aroma, however.

-Steve

Strange thing is, he's right. (And he knows the difference between "your" and "you're.")

Better plonk the whole group. Ignorance is bliss, so you'll be blissfully happy that way.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:14:55 -0500, Steve Jackson wrote (in article ):

He had asked simple question and I felt the simplest answer was the best. Getting overly complicated would only have confused his situation further.

I tried the side by side with a Light Blonds Ale recipe and these two yeasts: Ale (East Coast Ale WLP008) Lager (San Francisco Lager WLP810) both from White Labs. The average temp was 66ºf right between both yeasts optimal brewing temp. The outcome was two totally different character beers. Similar to comparing a German Weiss to the Belgian Wit. Even though both start with very similar wort recipes. All that I can tell you is both came out very good and didn't go to waste.

I have discussed the Labic question with several brewers (American, Belgian & German). It may have been because of the German purity laws that the German didn't consider Lambics (except Gueze) to be a beer. They wanted to put it in the wine category. Go figure. I'm happy accepting it as a beer.

Because of the yeasts that are present and begin the spontaneous fermentation (Brettanomyces family) they are in the Lager category. Later in the process (Saccharomyces family) take over like (S, cerevisiae, S. bayanus, S. globosus, S. dairensis and S. uvarum) also considered Lager yeasts. But because of the use of open vats there are also several other yeasts found in the Lambics. What others? (Candida, Hansenula & Pichia) depending on the geographical area of Belgium that it is brewed in. Which as you said consume different sugars. To what effect? Most said very little since the fermenting temp was too low for those yeasts to be very active. Some said they added greatly to the esters and flavor. I guess it's to each his own as to the overall effect they have.

They are traditionally brewed in the winter which inhibits the summer (warm temp) yeasts. It also makes sure that the proper bacteria (Pediococcus damnosus and/or Pediococcus cerevisiae) are the only bacteria that are introduced and produce lactic acid instead of other other unwanted flavors.

Lager gets my vote since it's the majority in the multi yeast quagmire. I'd be happy to hear your and others opinions because the more you learn about brewing the more interesting it becomes.

Except of course when the opinions come from snotty little minds with no civility whatsoever.

Applying the Reinheistgebot to beers outside of Germany would end up with most of what's produced in the world not being counted as beer, including from great brewing countries like Belgium and England. Sticking with the broader definition of an alcoholic beverage made from fermented cereal grains, it certainly qualifies.

Actually, lager is S. uvarum (or S. carlsbergensis, in older nomenclature). Brettanomyces is its own, not-really-related family.

S. cerevisiae is actually ale yeast.

Tough to isolate a particular flavor to a particular microbe in the case of lambics, not least of which is because the vast majority are blended. And various bacteria, especially lactic bacteria, contribute as much if not more to the flavor profile than the various yeasts present.

I don't see any lager yeast in lambic (referencing above, where lager is a very specific species of yeast, and not a category per se, unless the taxonomy has changed in the past few years). Lambic's a hodge-podge of microflora. And it's distinct enough that it arguably deserves its own category outside ale and lager. And, as I mentioned before, to me the difference between ale and lager is much more one of fermentation process than it is yeast selection. Which, in my opinion, makes the case of its own unique category even stronger.

-Steve

Begin Bill Becker quote:

; Beers above a certain alcohol percentage have to be labelled as ales or malt ; liquors in some states. ; Or some such nonsense. ;^)

Even though the difference is the type of yeast and not the resulting alcohol content?

Another pissing contest over whose brewing-knowledge-dick is bigger. Wow, how cool.

Yes. In states like Texas, the type of yeast has no meaning to the politicos who passed the laws on beer labeling; alcohol content was the deciding factor, so "strong" beers are ales, "weak" beers are beers.

Except to you, of course. You already know all there is to know.

In other words, anyone who dares to question your high and mighty expertise on things regarding beer and brewing. Excuse me if I don't bow and scrape and regard you as the grand poobah of all things beer. You might want to do something about that thin skin thing you got goin' on, though. Gonna plonk everyone who doesn't worship at your all-knowing altar?

Begin Oh, Guess quote:

; Yes. In states like Texas, the type of yeast has no meaning to the ; politicos who passed the laws on beer labeling; alcohol content was ; the deciding factor, so "strong" beers are ales, "weak" beers are ; beers.

Yuck. But then again, that is the home state of Shrubya.

unfotuntaely the people who determine these things couldnt remove their heads from their asses with GPS and a support team

You can see it that way if you like. Or you can see an effort to educate.

lol.