Aw-Right, you red-eye, blue collar brew swiggers: how many of you have NOT
noticed that when you buy your favorite domestic (caaarf!) beer that the
retailer likely has about 6 times as much of the Lite crap as he has of the
regular stuff? Question is: what percentage of you know why? It ain't cuz
we're all a pack of friggin' panzie's who suck up to our ol' ladies because
American men have been pussified beyond Einstein's comprehension. Nope. It's
got nothing more than their bottom line to do with it. It costs more to
manufacture (American beer ain't brewed, it's formulated) a product that
contains more alcohol, therefore the "brewers" highly market their Lite
stuff to an American market that has been convinced that 'great taste' and
'less filling' ain't two mutually exclusive expectations, which of course,
they are. So take that, all of you watered-down crap drinkers ;-) Even
Mexicans know beer better than we do!!
(Top-posting, I know, but...)
Hey! P2Pansy! Next time you choose to excrete your opinions all over an NG,
take a second or two to aim. The regular posters on alt.beer know a shitlot
more about beer than you'll ever know, and we're not a bunch of red-eye blue
collar (well, some of us are, and what a wonderfully elitist statement that
was for you to make, you piss-artiste) brew swiggers. Get over yourself;
just because you've had a draft Guinness without crying doesn't make you a
better person than anyone.
"As for talking shit in this NG, Lew, you're the undisputed king, and
Mia Culpa to those I offended.... elitism is something that I can be
overbearing with a bit, but mostly what I said was intended good fun. The
brewers and their marketing tactics are the thrust of my point, and the
number of people who are not aware (or interested) in how we Americans are
being screwed by products that do not measure up except in making a profit
for their respective manufacturers. If you are saying that this does not
matter, may I ask, why not? Are we not deserved a high quality product
rather than just to be convinced that horse piss is fit for the gods? My
'elitism' goes this far: if nearly every country on the planet has proved
that its' beers are collectively superior to ours, how can we not find that
issue of some significance? If condemnation of our nation's beers is too
much for you to swallow, then perhaps you can get a bigger kick out of
berating 'Top Posters', (God, what a mortal sin!)
You really don't get it at all, Nibble-Nuts. The point is, your statement is
not news to any of the regulars at alt.beer. Actually, it's bullshit in a
number of ways: for instance, "if nearly every country on the planet has
proved that its' beers are collectively superior to ours": sez who? We just
got the results from the Great American Beer Festival judging yesterday, a
bunch of excellent beers. In the judgment of people who actually know what
they're talking about, America is the very best place for a beer-lover to
be, because of the huge variety of excellent beers we make here. Yeah, the
microbreweries are small, but breweries making worthwhile beer in other
countries are generally pretty small, too. There are exceptions, but not
many. And there are only a small number of countries that are in the top
tier with the U.S.: Belgium, Germany, the UK, the Czech Republic, Canada,
Japan, Austria, France...and that's about it. If you're judging American
beer by Bud, Miller Lite, and Coors Lite, the joke's on YOU. And if you're
getting screwed by products that do not measure up...dude, YOU need to buy
something else. Because it IS available. I drank it all day yesterday at a
great little beer festival in Pennsylvania.
If you're feeling like you're howling into the night with the good beer
news...stick around and learn something. Seriously. Or don't. It's your
Their clothes are weird, their music sucks and they drink
Lew, are you gonna, by chance, be in NYC for Brewtopia in November?
The NYCHG has a table and we'll be serving our beers alongside the big
visit the New York City Homebrewers Guild website:
Thanks, Lew, I needed that, I guess. Yeah, I knew that in the back of my
mind that there are good American beers, and I suppose that I was just
offensively overlooking the fact that some great beers in the U.S. are
available. I'm still galled that the overwhelming majority of what is out
there is brewcrap. Would it be conceivable that something good could be mass
produced and marketed at a price that would be competitive with the
majority? What I'm inferring is this: vodka maker's prices are more
predicated by marketing rather than quality of taste, as has been proved
recently by independant tests. Beer is not a complex molecular compound
either: I'm unwilling to drive across town to a specialized pub only to pay
inflated prices for brew that might otherwise be available at some package
store if only more Americans knew what quality taste was, and insisted upon
it. It's simply a reflection of depreciated U.S.quality, be it beer, soda,
automobiles, or housing, where such is often defined by waferboard boxes
with unGodly architecture and garish window designs.
"P2P Xtasy" schreef in bericht
You can't be serious, no? They'd wish one had a full inventory of all
possible organic molecules in your average Pilsener (let's not talk Bud). In
top fermenting ales, it's even worse, and then there's lambics and other
spontaneous or mixed fermentations.
They even haven't identified all possible compounds in (all possible) hops,
let alone the derivatives of the living yeast cells.
Can you please tell that to my brewing course teachers? It would cut out all
of the bio-chemistry, engineering and whatnot. About 75% of the course
probably, maybe more.
LOL. Beer is more complex than most of us will ever imagine.
All right, I'll apologize for calling you Nibble-Nuts, then. But beer IS a
complex molecular compound; certainly more complex than vodka.
Seriously, though: where are you? I'm in a small town in southeast PA, and
there are two beer stores in town. One is boring, but the other, within 1/4
mile of the first one, has a stellar selection. Likewise with bars: Of the
approximately 15 in town, there are five with good selections, and one with
a monster collection of Belgian bottles and a constantly changing selection
of micro/import taps. It may be where you are. Large parts of urban America
are doing pretty well.
"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
Lew, you wouldn't understand if I simply told you where I am first. It's a
little town called Dallas. In President Bush's home state. The city has some
of the most screwed up liquor laws of anyplace in the country. Our city is
divided into precincts and each one has chosen by the voters whether to be
wet or dry. Major parts of Dallas are dry (thanks to good ol' Southern
Baptistry), which means some of us who want to buy alcohol must drive a
distance. Yes, every available beer that is brewed in the world is probably
available here, but not around the corner, and certainly not at six dollars
a six pack which I try not to exceed by much very often. So it's not exactly
like my hands are tied; it's just that I'm a bit upset with the junk that is
being pawned of to John Q., whom I place myself among. I remember domestics
from my childhood tasting far superior to what they do now (not my
imagination, look at soft drinks and remember back to the early sixties
before they reformulated them to taste like Sam's Club Cola). Things are
just different now, that's all.
How exactly are they screwed?
I hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of people out there who
*like* what the major breweries produce. I've known several people over the
years who have tried other beers, much more flavorful beers, beers that give
a small group of near- to total geeks chubbies, and they go back to their
Bud or Miller or Coors. Why? Because they *prefer* it. Not because some
animated lizard told them to.
Because there are roughly 484 trillion things more urgent in this world than
how beer is marketd.
Are we not deserved? We are deserved something resembling proper English,
for one. Secondly, I have absolutely zero problem finding bundles of
high-quality product when it comes to beer. Clearly, you're not trying hard
Because it's bullshit. No one has proved any such thing. Go to any country,
find their mass-produced fizzy yellow lager, and it's at least as shitty as
anything the major American breweries crank out. In many countries, it's
far, far worse. And even in countries with great beer traditions, like
Germany and Britain, the fizzy yellow lagers are what sell the most.
Not to mention, I'll hold up American beers against any country on the
planet. No country, none, has the enormous variety of excellent beer that
America has. None. Not Belgium. Not England. Sure as hell not Ireland or
Germany. Canada would be the closest contender, because they've had much the
same evolution in brewing over the last 25 years that the U.S. has.
Or did you not know that there's more to American beer than what comes out
of St Louis, Milwaukee and Golden, Colo.?
It might be too much to swallow if it came from someone who had the faintest
idea what he was on about. As such, coming from someone who clearly has a
very limited view of what's out there, it's about as difficult to swallow as
a glass of water.
Well, here's the thing:
Quality does not sell well in a mass market.
It's not just beer. Look at the largest and most popular businesses in the
country. McDonald's. Wal Mart. General Motors. Or look at what sells well
for entertainment. Most people do not buy quality. Beer's not going to be
To be honest, no. I don't see it in restaurants - unless you consider
Applebee's and Chili's to be quality. I don't see it in retail. I don't see
it in entertainment. I don't see it in the grocery.
And even if consumers were interested in buying higher quality on a large
scale (the demand is certainly there on smaller scales, but not anywhere
near the scale that a McDonald's or Wal Mart operates on), it would be very
difficult to produce those goods at the same price as the mediocre. Quality
takes attention, quality ingredients or components, etc. And those things
cost money, either in the materials that go into the product, or in the
labor used to produce them. There are some exceptions - In 'N Out Burger,
for instance, produces a vastly superior burger than any other fast food
chain, and at a competitive price - but they are few and far between.
Get the right group of people, with their subjective tastes, and you can
"prove" anything. I'm always skeptical of those. Although, it's not
difficult to make the case in terms of vodka. It's a neutral spirit. Those
who say there are no differences are dead wrong, but there is nowhere near
the variance in vodka that there is in, say, whisk(e)y.
Actually, the process of making beer is very complex at the molecular level.
Read up on brewing sometime. You'll be fascinated. Or at least surprised by
the complexity of the biochemical reactions that occur just during
fermentation, let alone what goes on in the malting and brewing processes
And that's your fault, frankly. Specialty products are not going to come to
you. You have to go to them. I do it all the time. I like doing it, in fact.
And, frankly, it's not much different in Europe. With some scattered
exceptions, there are very few places on the planet you can walk into any
old pub or bar and know you're going to get a really good beer. Very few.
Serious question: Have you spent much time outside the country? It's easy to
go the Americans are idiots route because, well, they are. But here's the
thing: People are idiots, anywhere and everywhere. There are certainly some
areas in which Americans as a whole are worse - for example, in the area of
food, Americans in general tend to value speed, convenience, enormous
portions (or "value") and predictability over quality and distinctiveness.
The French, for example, tend to be the opposite. But the French have
appaling taste in other areas, bland lager outsells any of the UK's
traditional beers by huge margins, and in Germany, the most popular beers
are barely different than the likes of Coors. The U.S. is not unique in its
embrace of the middle-of-the-road. It's everywhere.
OK, first off, apologies a bit if I went at you a bit hard in the other
posts. We get all sorts of "American beer sucks, is so
much better" (and they'll often name that country's blandest, most
mass-market beer as "proof") on this NG, 99 percent of them from complete
idiots who are scarcely aware that beer comes in other colors than yellow,
that it becomes reflexive to go at them. It's all in the tone, and the tone
of your subsequent posts is getting more serious and actually
discussion-focused (which is a good thing), which deserves a fair response.
So, I'm done with the slap-you-around bit.
Secondly, pretty much every locality has something about it that's
absolutely daft in terms of its liquor laws. In Indiana, by law, stores have
to charge slightly more for beer that's chilled than not. In Pennsylvania,
you can only by beer by the case. In Minnesota, you cannot buy beer and wine
at groceries. But in Illinois and California, I can get hard liquor at my
local Walgreen's. It's a crazy quilt of laws in this country, emphasis on
Few places in America where that's not the case, for better or worse. You
have to drive a distance for pretty much everything here. But, really,
high-quality beer is like high-quality bread or meat or whatever. Really
good bread is not showing up at the typical local Kroger. You have to go to
a good bakery, or a really good grocery.
In my opinion, the good stuff is worth traveling for. Yeah, I'd love it if
everything I really liked that's of higher quality were right next door, but
it doesn't work that way. It didn't even work that way when I lived in
Europe, where high-quality food and drink are easier to find (at least in
major cities) than in many places in the States.
If that were the case, Dallas would be paradise. I don't even get nearly
every beer brewed in California here in LA, let alone the world. There's an
amazing amount of good beer out there, much of which you have to go to. (For
instance, one of my 2-3 favorite beers in the world comes from one single
pub in Düsseldorf.)
Part of it, frankly, is your expectation level. I don't expect to get a
really good leather jacket for 50 bucks, or to buy an outstanding car for
$10,000. Sure, there are cases of inflated prices all over the place and
pricetags that are more about hype than substance, but the adage "you get
what you pay for" is often as not true.
Yes, they are. But not all for the bad. Yes, Coke made with corn syrup
instead of cane sugar blows. Yes, mass-market beers have slowly evolved to
having less flavor (which, for certain elements of beer's flavor compounds,
can be measured objectively). Yes, chain retail and restaurants have
overwhelmed the countryside, to the point that you could blindfold someone,
drop them in a suburban shopping district anywhere in the country, and they
would have absolutely no clue where they are, because it looks the same in
But there's a lot good. There are now literally thousands of American
breweries, whereas in teh 70s there were on the order of maybe a couple
hundred. Even my average Vons or Ralphs (Safeway or Kroger elsewhere)
carries ethnic foods, spices, ingredients, meats, fish that were nearly
impossible to find anywhere even 20 years ago. Fast food has been losing
ground to "quick casual" restaurants that serve noticeably higher quality
food, like Chipotle or Panera.
Things evolve, some for the better, some for the worse. The mass market has
gotten worse in many ways. At the same time, at least for those of us who
live in larger cities (most rural areas are still seriously deprived of
choice), we have a wider range of choices and options, and more high-quality
products available to us than at any time in our history.
"Steve Jackson" wrote in
Perceived quality sells like crazy. Ask Chrysler.
My limited understanding is that craft (whatever that means)
beers are the only growing segment in the market. This means
that while Coors/Miller/bud just dick with each other, they are
all losing share.
I guess maybe the clown is losing market to the king. I just
don't care. I guess maybe there are those of us that obsess
about how last month Coors delivered 10 cases more than Bud to
BBC/Sam Adams? Guinness? Fuller's anything?
No, they don't. I'll take a slider any day.
Not only is InO not worth the wait, but Tommy's makes a vastly
superior burger. And unlike In 'n' Out, Tommy's understands
that lunchtime might just be busy. InO: "We don't throw the
fleshdisc on the big hot metal thing 'til you tell us to." Meh.
It's lunchtime. I could wait 5 minutes for a burger at BK or I
could wait 20 at In 'n' Out Urge. Easy choice.
In 'n' Out: They have somehow convinced people that waiting is
a bonus (ala Guinness). If I feel like waiting, I'll take a
Fatburger (or even a Fuddruckers) any day.
In 'n' Out: I only go there when Superkid has earned a treat
and that's what she asks for. "Vastly superior" - not. And
their fries suck, just in case you haven't noticed.
I have yet to be anything other than underwhelmed. The InO
burgers are small masses of wax-paper-wrapped Thousand Island
Better burgers are to be had in less the time.
If In 'n' Out was a brewpub chain, which one would they be, in
In 'n' Out is like Coors in the '70s, nothing more. Or...Pinks:
The dog itself is nice 'n' snappy, but the chili is watery
garbage, the buns are grocery store cheapos, the service is I'm-
an-actor-and-you're-bothering-me, and the whole thing is
lukewarm when it gets to you. Apparently famous, but the
execution is far, far less than I could make at home in half the
You invoke the Name of God to address your perception of US
product quality? God help you. I'm guessing (again) that He
does not want you to pull stupid shit like that out of your ass.
If US products are unGodly, what are, say, Honda products? Has
God bestowed His blessing on Ford or Nissan or Checker or Romeo?
Which? Apparently You Know.
I vote for Aston-Martin, but that's just me.
Which products has God given His approval for? I want a
comprehensive list, please.
Brand of milk? 3 1/2" coarse-thread drywall screws? Kumho or
Cooper? Low pulp or...? I want...no, sorry, I NEED your list
of God-Approved products because I buy beer often and if it's
not God-Approved, well, I'll burst into flame if I drink it.
And I don't want to burst into flame. We need a dishwasher (ie,
box of elves) badly. So I need your list because if Kenmore
isn't on God's list...well, I don't know what I'm going to do,
but I certainly don't want non-God-approved evil in my house.
Americans are narrow in their views. For example, they don't
understand why all families in the World do not own at least one
So you hate America?
So you *do* hate America.
Long Beach, CA
"I 'get' the difference between '>>' and '>'."
"P2P Xtasy" wrote in
First? My sister lives in Grapevine. She's first.
George W. Bush's home state is Connecticut. But he can
hardly speak English, so I can see where you might be
What can I send you? I'm not sure I can do < $1 a bottle,
but I'm willing. How 'bout this: I'll send you a growler of
BBC Long Beach Crude - Gold medal, Sweet Stout (means nothing
to the brewery, apparently), LA County Fair.
Email me privately.
Serious (as Superkid would say).
Heh! I remember Erlanger and Killians and Michelob.
In 1977+/-1, I bought Michelob at $1.80/case on a BX
literally 2,000 miles from anywhere.
Yeah they are. They're better.
P2whatever: Email. Really.
Long Beach, CA
You know...I hate to admit this, but Wal-Mart actually does sell some really
good shit. Tools, for instance. I get really good diesel fuel treatment
there that I couldn't get elsewhere except by mail order. I just don't like
the stores. But some of the shit they sell is really good. Hard to admit for
a chain-hater like me, but it's the truth.
"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
I vote for Aston-Martin, but that's just me.
Aston Martin? UnGodly, to be sure. UnGodly smooth , fast, cool, sexzee,
not to mention expensive, which would probably be reason enough not to get
God's personal approval for Jesus' ride should he come back for a second
term of 'office'. Remember, Jesus was a humble man, not likely to be seen in
a Hummer, be it a 1, 2, or III.