Ontario Survey

News to me, Joe. Canada must be a legend in its own mind. Somebody says "high alcohol beers" to me, and the two countries that spring to mind are Belgium and America. Canadian high-alcohol beers? Unibroue 11 is up there, as is the Terrible, but Dogfish Head WorldWide Stout beats both handily at

18.8% ABV (that's this year's, weaker version). Belgium's specialty ales (excepting the lambics, sour ales, witbiers, and the like) start at 7% and work their way up from there. Canada? Not a chance.

Bull. I don't remember ever paying $6 for a pint (20 oz. or otherwise) in a U.S. bar outside of Manhattan, except for certain extremely rare Belgian imports. Mug's Ale House in Brooklyn runs 20 oz. pints for US$4, beers like the Brooklyn beers, German and British imports, etc. Here in Philly it's between $3.50 and $5 for a 16 oz. pint, mostly towards the low end of that, and there are frequent specials. "Working Man's" bars are much cheaper, often running 'dollar draft' specials that push it even lower. Here, I've got notes from a NY trip last year (all beers 16 oz. unless otherwise noted): Corning -- Ithaca Nut Brown, $2, Paulaner Hefe (20 oz.) $3.75. Buffalo -- Edmund Fitz Porter, $3, Flying Bison, $3.50. Syracuse -- Cooperstown Stout, $3. New York City -- Otter Creek Mud Bock (12 oz. bottle) $2.50, Schneider Edelweiss AND Shipyard Old Thumper, $5.50 for the pair (special on Old Thumper), Brooklyn Lager, $3, Brooklyn IPA (20 oz., cask) $4.50, Heartland IPA (brewpub) $3.50, Brooklyn Lager (20 oz., in the heart of midtown Manhattan), $5.

Must be the heavy beer taxes in Canada.

Indeed.

I'm comparing the everyday, as you call it "working man's beers" here. No offense, and trust me I am a specialty beer lover, but Joe Sixpack doesn't drink Dogfish Head or lambic beers. Joe Sixpack in Canada drinks Labatt Wildcat (7%+ alcohol), Lucky Lager (up to 10%), or in Alberta Axehead Extreme Beer (11% and cheaper than the rest too) The reason for the high alcohol contents of beer in Canada is not for some macho reason, its all about the heavy beer taxes. The taxes are now officially the highest in the world, but in Canada beer isn't taxed by alcohol content, only quantity, thus the reasoning is "bang for your buck."

Notice I said NY.

Maybe. I'd like to see numbers on how much of which Canadian beers are actually produced and sold before I'm convinced.

I also notice that you deleted and didn't respond to all the much lower upstate NY prices I quoted, nor did you respond to the relatively low prices I quoted in New York City. Dodgey, Joe, dodgey.

Not quite. Most of the breweries sell beer directly at their own premises.

And according to

Sleeman is also an owner of The Beer Store.

A brewery is only allowed to sell beer outside the Beer Store/LCBO system at there own brewery. One store only. Not just that, but they can only sell beer at that location that is brewed at that location. Thats fine if you live in the neighborhood, but geez that isn't very capitalistic, and that sure is a major retailing disadvantage. How can you get customers outside your town if you don't want to get extorted by the Molson/Labatt/Sleeman (Sleeman is I believe

Sure, go to

for the very extensive sales numbers, and go to for the provincial liquor tax schedule.

Nothing at

on sales broken out by brand.

My contention is that the great majority of in-Canada beer sales are of beers that are between 4.5 and 5.5%...just as they are in the rest of North America. I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise yet.

I can't speak for other provinces but, here in Ontario, The Beer Store carries a couple of beers from Niagara Brewing, the Eisbok @ 8% ABV and Olde Jack @ 7.2%. Plus, a pitiful 3 of the many great beers of Unibroue from our sister province of Quebec, namely, La fin du Monde @

9%, Maudite @ 8% and Trois Pistoles @ 9%. However, The Beer Store also lists their top ten best selling brands. I won't bother to name the brands but, their alcohol content is: 3 brands @ 4% 4 brands @ 5% 2 brands @ 5.5% 1 brand @ 6.1% If you want to see which ones they are, check out Neither the brews from Niagara nor those from Unibroue could be considered main stream brews that Joe Sixpack runs out to buy every second day. Ontario is the province with the highest population of all the provinces in Canada and, going by The Beer Store's own data, it certainly agrees with Lew's contention noted above "that the great majority of in-Canada beer sales are of beers that are between 4.5 and 5.5%...just as they are in the rest of North America".

Ross.

By God, Ross, I'm so filled with righteous gratitude that I might just venture out tomorrow and send you that video I promised you two years ago!

You have convinced me. You are right. Its probably a taste thing. Strong beer turns the public off. Eg. Molson Export and OV used to be mass market beer, but not have been substituted by Bud and Coors Lights. I have always t hought those beers were for people who didn't like beer.

But I do stand on the hypothesis that kids and people on a budget drink Wildcat and Black Ice because they are $25 a case and 7% alcohol. Blue is 5% and $35 a case.

As for high taxes I believe beer is taxed at about 50 cents a litre,which is less than wine or spirits.Is that high (relative to USA)?BTW American micros are almost non existant here.

pardon me for jumping in, but...

Of course that's the case. The Canadian beer market isn't any different than the US market as far as I can tell: the large majority of sales are the large brewers (Labbatt, Molson) and their big products fit right into that range.

Just like the US, you do get regional pockets where the beer markets are bit more interesting (I live in one in Victoria, BC). But even here, the majority of our beer sales will absolutely fall into that range. In fact, I think we tend to lag a bit behind our American counterparts in terms of ABV. Our brewpub/craft brewing influence is almost entirely British.

Every brewpub here does a bitter, a sout or porter, a pale ale and perhaps an IPA (but I've never seen anything like the trend to "Imperial" IPA's here). And almost always the IPA will be "British" in character rather than the assertive PNW styles just to the south. Hophead IPA excepted, of course.

Barleywines and the like are starting to appear more frequently, and a few of the brewers are experimenting with some Belgian styles, but it seems to me that our brewers are a little less adventuresome than the brewers to the south.

all imo, of course...

Bill

Joe,

By strong do you mean high in alcohol or, lots of flavour? In either case, if you consider Molson Ex and Old Vienna to be strong beer, I'd love to watch your expression after taking your first wonderful mouthful of something like a nice local Wellington County Brewery's County Ale or a great import like Victory Brewing's Hop Devil. Now, on to your hypothesis of high alcohol beer on the cheap. You must be a "Blue" drinker since you're within 5 cents on that one. However, for a two four of Wildcat you'll have to shell out another $5.95 over your stated $25.00, 'cause it's $30.95/24. But sadly, it doesn't quite live up to your 7% ABV. In fact, it's a measly 4.9% ABV. Similarly, a two four of Black Ice will cost you the $25.00 plus an additional $6.95 since it is $31.95. Granted, it is closer to your 7% ABV but, still falls short by almost a full % point at only 6.1%. Life is WAY too short to drink crappy beer anyway.

Ross.

Earlier in this thread, Joe gave some examples: Labatt Wildcat (7%+ alcohol), Lucky Lager (up to 10%), or Alberta's Axehead Extreme Beer (11%). High in alcohol, forget the flavor - in all three of these cases, these aren't beers you drink for flavor, they're alcohol-delivery systems, nasty things with some minimal resemblance to decent, well-made beer. In the States, we call these things "malt liquors." At beer competitions like the GABF, being forced to judge these beers is a bit like having to sit at the kids' table at Thanksgiving.

Preach it, brother.

If by "people on a budget" you mean "street people blowing whatever they've begged that day on crappy-tasting strong lager," okay.

That accounts for much of the population, and yes thats what I meant.

Heh. You're all right, Joe.

Lew,

I checked out your web site. So you're some hot shot beer expert, huh? :-) What the beer situation like in PA. I know they have a similar situation like in Ontario, but the beer store owners there are like the most powerful political lobby group ever (like our beer companies here) . Care to enlighten us?