Brewing

Actually, Don's not an ass in the least. . . I figure he's spent a few minutes trying to educate you on the biz. However, since you seem to be bound and determined to flaily about and not pay attention to the opinions you've solicited, I'm sure you know what's best.

Look, junior, take a lesson from Lew and Don. If you want to play in the beer biz, then you should probably do some heavy research. Roanoke isn't even going to support a multi-tap. You want to open a taproom in Roanoke? Make lots of room for MGD, AB products, etc. That's the reality. The profit margin to be made off of beer geeks is razor thin - even in robust markets. Don't go pissing on Don because you came off with a half-baked idea.

P.S. - If you want to search for original posts from me, you might want to go back to the cfv that started this newsgroup. . .

I'm sure the answer's going to be "yes," but did you get a chance to try to the Dupont (not the saison) draught beer at Tangletown recently. Les Bonne Veux, or somesuch. . . Jesus H. TapDancing Christ that's a great beer.

Don -

Fish, barrel, large bore rifle. . .

And to think, I've skipped reading rfdb for months. Hopefully, this guy is a troll, and we've all been drawn in. The alternative is too horrifying to consider.

Heh.

Heh. "Bönnsch."

Damn if you didn't hit that nail straight on its widdle haid. Why, I believe there are more than a couple of brewpubs scattered about this fine nation of our which have done pretty much just that.

So far, no. Are you saying it's worth the drive? 'Cause I don't live so close to there any more. I'm closer to the Elysian. Not that it wouldn't be worth a drive up, mind you ... hmm. I just might have a plan for this evening.

If you get there on a night when Heather is working the bar, it's more than worth the drive. The food is good, but not great. . . The beers are all what you'd expect from Elysian. . . But, The Heather Show is definitely worth the drive.

I'll be sure to contact the original poster and offer to invest in his surefire venture. . .

I wouldn't even bet on a successful venture with a specialty beer bar in Charlottesville - and they have UVA as a built in clientele. Truth be told, Virginia, regardless of where you ware, just isn't friendly to beer-themed rooms. The best one I've found is "Green Leaf" down in Williamsburg, and they are always running on the thin edge of the margin where it comes to beer.

I almost feel bad about being old, wizened, and testy. Guess I'll drown my sorrows with a trip to Victory next week. Who knows? I might even throw caution to the wind and stop in for a beer or two at Monk's.

You take that back!!

I bear my burdens so lightly, but burdens they are.

.sigquote here, getcher .sigquote here!

Maybe if we all get together and sing this in three-part harmony with synthesizers and lasers ... ? I know for a fact that Lew can carry one hell of a tune.

Let alone a brewpub, unless someone has *really* deep pockets and is willing to watch a lot of money swirl down the drain.

Yep. You don't go into the beer biz - serving it or making it - to get rich quick, or even at all. I believe it was a wise ol' pub- owner in Portland (the one in Oregon, folks) that suggested it was far more profitable to be a property-owner leasing space to pub- keepers, than to actually be a pub-keeper.

And most of all, you gotta know your market. Maybe there is room for a specialty beer bar in Roanoke, VA. Maybe, if enough people are weaned off BudMillOors there, they'll go for something with a little more robustness (robusticity?) and flavor. Maybe. But somehow, I wouldn't lay huge bags o' bucks on it.

Jeez, there's my third shower today. Will you people just stop?!?

Yeah, but what have you contributed? What? C'mon, the world belongs to youth, brimming with happy, clueless enthusiasm, not tired, wizened, cynical old RFKIA beer geeks on Usenet.

And you've gotta be willing to learn. It's pretty obvious you're a rank beginner, and you've got a steep learning curve to climb. So when people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!

Thanks for the advice. I am here to learn and am going to "climb up that curve".

Ya gotta learn to include quotes in your posting, even if you're using Google groups. BTW, a better alternative is to get a free account on news.individual.de and use a newsreader client like Firefox or Agent instead.

And you've gotta be willing to learn. It's pretty obvious you're a rank beginner, and you've got a steep learning curve to climb. So when people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!

You know, Don, if I wanted to be you-like to you, I could jump all over your ass and point out that you're some sort of troglodytic half-wit because you can't tell the difference between a browser like Firefox and a news/email client like Thunderbird. Yeah, they're both Mozilla, but I'm sure it's very confusing.

But I won't do that.

Oh, and nice touch with the spelling flames elsewhere in the thread. Those are *so* challenging to come up with. And I'm sure you feel at least a good inch taller now and much more attractive to women.

The guy's obviously green, has only the beginnings of an idea, but I give him points for asking for thoughts before, say, sinking $800,000 into a brewery and kitchen. Hell, you should know from a brewpub owner you're familiar with about a three-hour drive south of you that someone who's open to any advice at all, instead of "fearlessly" plunging into the abyss is miles ahead of the game.

Usually asking questions is the first really, really good sign of being willing to learn. Sort of like the guy did when he first posted.

Yeah, it is. Your schools may have been different, but the generally recognized approach to help people negotiate those curves is not to jump up their ass for simply posing a question.

You might want to take your own advice.

-Steve

"John Nervo" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

So, after reading through roughly 40 posts of some actual advice mixed in with a bunch of behind-the-keyboard bragadoccio, here are my several cents:

1. Dunno how long you've been lurking around rfdb, but the beer knowledge level is pretty high amonst the regular posters (amongst the lurkers, who the hell knows?). So, we're all pretty familiar with Kölsch (I've had it several times in Köln/Cologne, which btw is considerably bigger than a town, unless, say, Cleveland is a town). OK, I'm done with the pedantry portion of the program.
2. The highway is littered with roadkill of people who loved homebrewing and decided to make it a business and either hated it, burnt out, failed miserably or gave it their best effort, but just couldn't make it work. Go slow and deliberately.
3. Whether you decide you want to look at the brewpub route or, as Lew suggested, the beer bar route, research, research, research. And when you're done with that, do some more research. Good business plans - and, more importantly, good businesses - are formed by finding a market, knowing it intimately, and meeting that market's needs effectively. Find out what beers are selling in Roanoke. Find out what's on tap at pretty much every bar and restaurant in town. Find out what the distributors move, and what they even have available. Find out if the distributors in the area even give a flying f*ck about anything other than the usual Bud/Miller/Coors (and maybe Heineken and Guinness if they're feeling "exotic") and treat the beer properly: you don't want to develop a reputation for selling s*it beer because all your distributors keep the three cases they get sitting out for a few months by the furnace. Find out the demographics of the area, especially income and support for other "luxury" items like artisan bakeries, non-chain restaurants, etc.

Once you've done all that research, you can begin to get a picture of whether Roanoke has a reasonable chance of supporting such an establishement. And then you can start to figure out what part of town to put it in (if you should put one in town at all). You can figure out if you should offer food if you're a beer bar, or what sort of food if you're a brewpub (when it comes to brewpubs, food is exponentially more important than beer; I'll get to that in a second). You can figure out how large a place to get. Etc.

1. If you go the brewpub route, make sure you either know restaurant management amazingly well, of find yourself the best damn restuarant manager you can afford. And after that, find the best damn chef you can afford. The single biggest factor I've seen in brewpub failures is ignorance or neglect of the food side. Here's a secret that way too many people seem ignorant of: I don't care how good your beer is, I don't care if you make the most amazing beer that's been brewed in 5000 years, you will fail, and fail miserably, if you don't have a good restaurant operation. I know of not one brewpub in the entire country that succeeds without handling the food side well (Elysian in Seatlle is the only one off the top of my head that may even come close). Food is what brings people in. Food is what pays your rent, your utilities, your staff. Beer is what gets you profit and, especially in the first few years, pays down your capital investment. It's sad how many brewpubs fail because they pay so much attention to the beer, and then ignore the food, thinking it's OK just to throw out the usual burgers, nachos and s***ty pastas. TGI Friday's and Applebee's do that far better than any brewpub owner ever will, and they'll kick your ass.You need to offer your customers a good night out that happens to include your beer. They will not come to you for your beer, at least not in numbers that are going to allow you to stay in business very long. That's true in a place like Chicago or LA, and it's way more true in a place like Roanoke. You don't need to be gourmet. But you need to offer good quality food and some things that are unique or especially well done.

You'll need to consider some of the same things if you go the beer bar route, but not as much. Beer bars can survive without food. Brewpubs cannot.

1. Find a niche. Find something in the market that is not being met and it seems like there might be a demand for, and make sure that thing isn't exclusive to beer. One of the most brilliant things I have ever seen is at the Laurelwood brewpub in Portland. There's a kids' play area. While there are people like me who frankly can't stand kids and would therefore avoid the place like the plague during hours families are likely to be there, I'm in a distinct minority. What that play area does is make it possible for husbands to take the kids off of mom's hands on Saturday afternoon and still meet the guys for a couple beers. It makes it easier for the whole family to go there for dinner on Friday night. Etc. I'm not saying that's you're niche (although, in a southern city like Roanoke, it may not be a bad idea), but you need to come up with something. Again, the restaurant is what's going to draw 80 percent of your customers in. You need to give them a good reason to come there.
2. Remember that even if you do everything right, you could still flame out, and flame out bad. The restaurant and bar segment has a horrible track record for longevity, amongst the worst for all new business startups. That's not to say you can't make it work. It's just to say that working your ass off will be no guarantee. But if you make sure that a lot of that work is done at the research stage, and being open-minded enough to say "this is a bad idea" if the numbers point that way, you'll stand a much better chance than most of the people who open up a new shop.
3. Remember that there's an enormous difference between enjoying brewing at home and doing it every goddamn day for years. Some things are best kept as hobbies. Make damn sure you love the absolute hell out of brewing before getting into it for a living. And make sure you love running a restaurant, too.

-Steve

STUPID Usenet Unicode. It omitted the o+e sign I carefully printed, and changed it by an o. Typical for the Internet, an absolute disregard for any other language than English.

Oh well, caught in my own trap ;^} Joris

I think it would probably work, actually, given some work and edumacation. Roanoke has a strong homebrew club, but apparently no one's ever given a beer bar a serious try, let alone a brewpub. Blacksburg, just down the road, has a decent beer culture, and is hometown to the contract-brewed New River Pale Ale, a feisty hop-bomb of a beer that sells for $2.25 a pint -- imperial -- in this college town. Blacksburg Brewing closed in May, though not because of lack of demand, and John does want to re-open as a brewpub...but I doubt that will be happening real soon. But I think something WOULD go in Roanoke. Main problem is wholesaler access: Virginia is one of the worst states I know for this, and western VA is the worst part.

The Mellow Mushroom has a great tap selection in Ch'ville (Bear Republic, 3 Floyds, Stone, etc.), there are two very strong brewpubs (South Street is quite adventurous, Starr Hill has probably won more GABF medals with fewer beers than any brewery in the country), and there are at least four other beer bars well worth your time, including an excellent German-themed one that also carries a half-decent Belgian array.

Steve Jackson Jan 8, 10:07 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.beer From: "Steve Jackson" - Find messages by this author Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:07:36 -0800 Local: Sat, Jan 8 2005 10:07 pm Subject: Re: Brewing Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

"John Nervo" wrote in message

news: snipped-for-privacy@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

So, after reading through roughly 40 posts of some actual advice mixed in with a bunch of behind-the-keyboard bragadoccio, here are my several cents:

1. Dunno how long you've been lurking around rfdb, but the beer knowledge level is pretty high amonst the regular posters (amongst the lurkers, who the hell knows?). So, we're all pretty familiar with Kölsch (I've had it several times in Köln/Cologne, which btw is considerably bigger than a town, unless, say, Cleveland is a town). OK, I'm done with the pedantry portion of the program.
2. The highway is littered with roadkill of people who loved homebrewing and decided to make it a business and either hated it, burnt out, failed miserably or gave it their best effort, but just couldn't make it work. Go slow and deliberately.
3. Whether you decide you want to look at the brewpub route or, as Lew suggested, the beer bar route, research, research, research. And when you're done with that, do some more research. Good business plans - and, more importantly, good businesses - are formed by finding a market, knowing it intimately, and meeting that market's needs effectively. Find out what beers are selling in Roanoke. Find out what's on tap at pretty much every bar and restaurant in town. Find out what the distributors move, and what they even have available. Find out if the distributors in the area even give a flying f*ck about anything other than the usual Bud/Miller/Coors (and maybe Heineken and Guinness if they're feeling "exotic") and treat the beer properly: you don't want to develop a reputation for selling s*it beer because all your distributors keep the three cases they get sitting out for a few months by the furnace. Find out the demographics of the area, especially income and support for other "luxury" items like artisan bakeries, non-chain restaurants, etc.

Once you've done all that research, you can begin to get a picture of whether Roanoke has a reasonable chance of supporting such an establishement. And then you can start to figure out what part of town to put it in (if you should put one in town at all). You can figure out if you should offer food if you're a beer bar, or what sort of food if you're a brewpub (when it comes to brewpubs, food is exponentially more important than beer; I'll get to that in a second). You can figure out how large a place to get. Etc.

1. If you go the brewpub route, make sure you either know restaurant management amazingly well, of find yourself the best damn restuarant manager you can afford. And after that, find the best damn chef you can afford. The single biggest factor I've seen in brewpub failures is ignorance or neglect of the food side. Here's a secret that way too many people seem ignorant of: I don't care how good your beer is, I don't care if you make the most amazing beer that's been brewed in 5000 years, you will fail, and fail miserably, if you don't have a good restaurant operation. I know of not one brewpub in the entire country that succeeds without handling the food side well (Elysian in Seatlle is the only one off the top of my head that may even come close). Food is what brings people in. Food is what pays your rent, your utilities, your staff. Beer is what gets you profit and, especially in the first few years, pays down your capital investment. It's sad how many brewpubs fail because they pay so much attention to the beer, and then ignore the food, thinking it's OK just to throw out the usual burgers, nachos and s***ty pastas. TGI Friday's and Applebee's do that far better than any brewpub owner ever will, and they'll kick your ass.You need to offer your customers a good night out that happens to include your beer. They will not come to you for your beer, at least not in numbers that are going to allow you to stay in business very long. That's true in a place like Chicago or LA, and it's way more true in a place like Roanoke. You don't need to be gourmet. But you need to offer good quality food and some things that are unique or especially well done.

You'll need to consider some of the same things if you go the beer bar route, but not as much. Beer bars can survive without food. Brewpubs cannot.

1. Find a niche. Find something in the market that is not being met and it seems like there might be a demand for, and make sure that thing isn't exclusive to beer. One of the most brilliant things I have ever seen is at the Laurelwood brewpub in Portland. There's a kids' play area. While there are people like me who frankly can't stand kids and would therefore avoid the place like the plague during hours families are likely to be there, I'm in a distinct minority. What that play area does is make it possible for husbands to take the kids off of mom's hands on Saturday afternoon and still meet the guys for a couple beers. It makes it easier for the whole family to go there for dinner on Friday night. Etc. I'm not saying that's you're niche (although, in a southern city like Roanoke, it may not be a bad idea), but you need to come up with something. Again, the restaurant is what's going to draw 80 percent of your customers in. You need to give them a good reason to come there.
2. Remember that even if you do everything right, you could still flame out, and flame out bad. The restaurant and bar segment has a horrible track record for longevity, amongst the worst for all new business startups. That's not to say you can't make it work. It's just to say that working your ass off will be no guarantee. But if you make sure that a lot of that work is done at the research stage, and being open-minded enough to say "this is a bad idea" if the numbers point that way, you'll stand a much better chance than most of the people who open up a new shop.
3. Remember that there's an enormous difference between enjoying brewing at home and doing it every goddamn day for years. Some things are best kept as hobbies. Make damn sure you love the absolute hell out of brewing before getting into it for a living. And make sure you love running a restaurant, too.

-Steve

Steve

Thanks for all the great advice.

John Nervo

Thank your lucky stars...it's one of the worst homebrewing books ever written.

------>Denny

If that's the case, you might want to point the OP in the direction of some of the better-quality brewing books. TNCJOHB would be a step up if it's that bad.

(Yeah, I know, better discussed on rec.crafts.brewing.)

Hell, I'll discuss it anytime, anywhere...but I'll pass my recommendations on to hi.

----------->Denny

John, I have that book...it's not a good book at all. Lots of bad advice and shaky recipes. When you say "The Bible", I assume you mean Charlie P.'s book. I applaud his attitude, but there's a lot of dodgy advice in that book, too. If you haven't already read John Palmer's How To Brew, go to the online version at www.howtobrew and check it out. It's "The NEW Bible"...

-------->Denny

at www.howtobrew

Can I assume you ment

John Nervo