Re: Top Drip Makers under $100? water temp and filters

snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net sez:

It probably was solidly built and lasted a long time. That's probably why Gillette (who now owns Braun) killed it off.

What's the basic diff between the FlavorSelect and the AromaDeluxe models?

Ah... The problem is Gillette now owns Braun. I would not expect Gillette to uphold the same level of consistency as Braun did.

The 550 is the manual and the 580 is the timer model. The 510 is being discontinued.

My 580 is a *fast* maker. I was concerned it was too fast (not enough contact with the beans), but it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Frank G.

On 2004-04-04 snipped-for-privacy@REMOVEcrossroadstechNOSPAM.com said: Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.coffee snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net sez:

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It probably was solidly built and lasted a long time. That's probably why Gillette (who now owns Braun) killed it off.

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I don't think that is the reason for discontinuing of the KF-185, KF-187, and KF-190. Gillette was the owner of record of Braun well back into the mid 1980's at least, maybe even into the 1970's or earlier, considerably predating the introduction of any of the "FlavorSelect" models. The KF-180, which came out a couple of years before the KF-185 and KF-187 with their few extra features is still in the line of Braun coffeemakers marketed in the US, and was their top model shown as of about two weeks ago. Like more and more consumer appliances, coffeemakers are considered to be useful appliances that will most likely be bought and discarded based on small changes in shape, control placement and design, and even color, most of which except for the shape and control design factors, will have little or no effect on how well the appliance makes coffee or on how pleasant and easy it will be to live with the machine and use it day in and day out.

What's the basic diff between the FlavorSelect and the AromaDeluxe models?

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The Aroma Deluxe models are the more modern-styled models sporting a "Euro" look, where as the FlavorSelect model, now represented only by the KF-180 in the current line, is the older Braun design with the squared-off corners, wider columnar design, and with the taller, more tapered carafe and filter basket. According to the temperature charts on their website, the KF-180 "FlavorSelect" model brews a couple of degrees Celsius hotter, and maybe takes a minute or two longer to brew a full pot than the Aroma Deluxe models. Then again, the FlavorSelect KF-180 is rated as a 12-cup model, and the Aroma Deluxe models are rated as 10-cup models.

Ah... The problem is Gillette now owns Braun. I would not expect Gillette to uphold the same level of consistency as Braun did.

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I think I already covered that base. If Gillette were interested in cutting quality control to save money, they've had well over 20 years in which to do it, and so far, that has not happened.

In the US, we know Braun first and foremost for electric shavers and coffeemakers, and to a lesser extent, electric toothbrushes and other smallish countertop kitchen appliances. In their Germanic homeland, Braun's name also appears on expensive larger household appliances, like vacuum cleaners, large kitchen appliances, and even high-end high-quality hi-fi stereo equipment, among other things.

The 550 is the manual and the 580 is the timer model. The 510 is being discontinued.

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There you go, models changing, being replaced, discontinued, changed, almost as we speak. When you start comparing models against each other, based on whatever criteria, if you comparison-shop today, and two or three months down the road, you still have not made your choice, you might have to start all over again. The model you almost bought last week might be no longer available new next month and its replacement may or may not be any better, or even as good, in some respects as what you should have bought last week.

My 580 is a *fast* maker. I was concerned it was too fast (not enough contact with the beans), but it doesn't seem to be a problem. Frank G.

I guess they can't please all the people all the time. Some of the old Krups models from the 1980's and early 1990's used to take as much as 15 minutes to brew a full 12 cups. Now some people think a 12-cup machine that takes more than 8 minutes or so to drip through a full pot is taking too much time.

If what you have makes what you consider a good-tasting pot of coffee using the coffee you like to use, then you're probably doing fine. If your tastes and preferrences change over time, you might need to look for something different.

After all, I know plenty of people who are perfectly content with a $20 Mr. Coffee machine from Wal-Mart and whatever Folgers or MaxwellHouse coffee is on sale this week at the supermarket for a "buy one, get one free" special price. Some people I know who settle for that have actually spent time and money with better brewing equipment, different brewing methods, and better, more expensive, and fresher coffee, but they went back to the old stand-by and are perfectly happy with it.

I guess it takes all kinds.

Reply to: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

give your coffee a break, take time to enjoy it •

On 2004-04-04 sbt snipped-for-privacy@silcom.com said: Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.coffee > The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot >enough, to ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should >be 92 to 96 degrees C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well >as some of the Capressos, meet this standard (as well as the Philips). I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee maching is actually heating the water to before dripping it through the coffee since most machines have hotplates under the carafe? Also, does any company other then Braun specifically claim that their machines properly heat the water? Why bother with gold-tone filters since, in my experience, they increase the likelihood of the machine to overflow during brewing? Is the flavor of coffee improved by not using a paper filter? And regarding paper filters, any idea why the cone type cost about 3X as much as the basket type?

The hot plate under the carafe is designed to keep the coffee hot after brewing. It does not effect the brewing temperature in most models, with the possible exception of some of the cheapest models where the same heating device serves to both heat the water for brewing and keep the coffee hot in the carafe after brewing.

MOst of the brand lines that have been traditionally considered to be among the better brands have people who claim they all heat the water to the optimum reccommended brewing temperature.

I have seen ads and statements from Bunn claiming that they make the only machines for the home market that get the water hot enough to brew a good cup of coffee. The last three times that Consumer Reports tested coffeemakers and actually listed the temperature of the coffee of the tested models in the carafe immediately after brewing stopped, the Bunn machines were among the coolest machines tested. They usually measured the temp in the carafe right after brewing, not the temperature of the water at the point where it leaves the nozzles just before going into the ground coffee.

I tried two different KitchenAid machines, I believe it was either KCM-200 or DCM-200 12-cup models a couple of years ago. I liked their rounded body styling, and I liked the way the controls were mounted midway along the front of the machine, well above the warmer plate. When I saw the nice heavy-duty three-prong electrical cord, I felt reassured that this machine just might be a good hot brewer. No matter what variety of coffee I used, how I ground it, or whether I used a permanent filter or a paper filter, I could only get rather bland, nondescript brew out of those machines. Almost none of the distinctive characteristics of a given origin of coffee bean, or a given roast profile stood out in the output from those KitchenAid machines. I did not keep either one long enough to determine whether the problem lay with water not hot enough, or contact time not long enough, or water not agitated enough inside the filter basket, or some combination of any or all of those things was the cause of the insipid output. My old early 1990's-vintage Krups Cafe Aroma 12-cup model, and my 12-cup Braun FlavorSelect models brew a good enough cup of coffee that I have a hard time trying to justify spending $185 to $225 plus shipping and handling to see if those Philips Technivorm models are any better at all.

As for paper versus gold-tone or other permanent filters, the big strike against paper is that it tends to soak up and blot out from your carafe and your cup, a large percentage of the volatile oils that carry the components that give good coffee much of the aroma and flavor characteristics that set good coffee apart from the older, cheaper, more stale run-of-the-mill stuff that most people drink most of the time. The cone-shaped or modified-cone-shaped filters are considerably more expensive than the flat pleated cupcake-style filters used in machines from the likes of Mr. Coffee and Black and Decker, and Sunbeam, and Hamilton-Beech. The quality of the paper is better and thicker, and in the case of the Melitta brand filters, they actually have what Melitta calls, "flavor pores" that are supposed to allow more of those volatile oils to get through the paper and into the carafe or cup.

Some of the price difference may be due to quality of materials and extra production costs, but I'm sure some of it is also due to smaller production runs, and even a certain amount of hype and snob appeal. After all, it's those more expensive European-brand models that use the cone type filters. Even a few "Euro-styled" Mr. Coffee models now use those cone type filters.

As for the issue of the gold filter holding water in the basket longer and overflowing the brew basket, you have to play around with different grind settings any time you change filter brands or types, or machines, and sometimes even different types and roasts of coffee beans to get your machine's optimum combination of filtration and drip rate for a given filter type or coffee type.

Reply to: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

Thanks for the detailed answer. Regarding filters, would you care to take a position based on personal experience?, i.e. does coffee made with a gold/permanent filter taste better then coffee made with a paper filter? Can you tell the difference between coffees made with cone Vs cupcake filters?

My Bunn A-10 series machine brews at 190°F to 195°F. Measured by threading a thermocouple into the grounds and observing the temperature over the brew cycle.

Paper filters do trap some of the coffee oils, which contain some of the flavor. However, since the extraction time and temp are optimized, I don't think the flavor lost to the paper filter is that noticeable, though I've never actually done a side by side cupping of the Bunn coffee to a vac pot or french press.