Catechin in tea reduces oxidized LDL, but milk in tea destroys (2026 Update)

Ah, but why is the LDL getting oxidized in the first place? How did my Great Grandfather live to be 100+ without any medications or antioxidant supplements (didn't drink much tea, milk, red wine, or eat dark chocolate either)? He used a little olive oil, ate only small portions of meat, and didn't have arachidonic acid in his cells. Obviously, other things helped too - he got a decent amount of sleep each night, for example, but the point is that aside from the indisputable (like getting enough sleep), the key is not to allow PUFAs into your LDL in the first place. I've cited studies showing how much more susceptible LDL is to oxidation when it is rich in PUFAs, so the evidence, when viewed as a whole, is about as strong as any reasonable person could ask for.

Your grandfather probably had outstanding genes. Most of us have much less. With those genes you could smoke, drink to your hearts content, not bother exercising, eat a lousy diet and you'll still live and be healthy. Those are the lucky ones.

To get back to the original article. Black (and pekoe) teas are drunk with milk in places like the UK, Ireland, etc because it has been known that these teas have tannens - tannic acids - that have been used for converting animal skins into leather. I have made many inquiries about alternatives to the use of small amounts milk in those teas to neutralize the tannens and found none. If you want a leather pouch instead of a stomach, drink these black teas without milk and your arteries will improve.

RuF

Tea has NO tannic acid. Tea, not even the strong black Irish Breakfast blend so beloved of trotting mice, will NOT tan leather,

Nigel at Teacraft

"Trotting mice?" Toci

Since you are in the business, I question your statement.

Strichnyne is not poison because I sell it. :-)

Look, tannic acid, like many of the compounds in tea that make it bitter or astringent, is a polyphenol. That doesn't mean that, e.g., tea catechins are the same as tannic acid. You might have a look here:

and here:

By the way, Nigel has provided a lot of good information to this newsgroup over the years. He has a lot of credibility here. It might have been a good idea to check that before assuming he was trying to hide the truths so he could sell something. (Or at least that's what I *think* you're implying.)

/Lew

Nigel Melican is a long-time and much-appreciated contributor to this group and I respectfully suggest that RuF, as an apparent newcomer, hesitate before insulting him and, having done so, apologize.

A bit of research (e.g.,

On this subject, he makes some of the best white tea I have ever tasted. It's from Malawi, available from

Conflict of interest: he once sent me small samples of these teas (and Nigel, though you said you wouldn't mind some green pu erh in return, you never e-mailed me your postal address).

Rick.

(As a medical researcher, I definitely _am_ in the business of selling poisons. I have gotten quite a bit of summer salary and grad. student support from U. Wisconsin's profit off of Warfarin, which was first proposed as a rat poison then made the lucrative jump to humans.)

For the most part, it's a change in terminology. A century ago, just about all the polyphenols and anything even remotely related to them were referred to as "tannins." Today we are a little bit more careful about that, and call the stuff in tea catechins instead, because they are.

Frankly, I find the whole "tea as a health food" thing totally bizarre. Drink tea that you like the taste of. Slow down and enjoy the tea. If you are enjoying things, your health will probably be better. If you are chugging gallons of crappy bottled commercial tea products, your health probably won't be, because the benefit of slowing down and enjoying the experience is missing.

--scott

Isn't cross-posting like this considered dubious netiquette? However, I join the thread in both venues to put another vote of support behind the Teacrafter.

As Lew, Rick and Scott point out, "tannin" is a pretty vague descriptor with an etymology that long pre-dates anything like modern chemical terminology. (An alembic of alkahest, anyone?) Where names like the mouthful abbreviated in EGCG specify a precise molecular structure, many (mostly so-called "trivial") names in common use specify nothing more than similarity in only one or two properties out of dozens discernible. Grease, for example, may derive from animal, vegetable or mineral or combinations thereof; may commonly be a single phase of hydrocarbon, a single or mixed monoester, triglyceride, cholesterol derivative or many others; an aqueous emulsion; or a soap; all with or without additional solid fillers like graphite or molybdenum disulfide, etc. etc. "All grease is good for cooking"??

The problem is that, as in most disciplines, almost anyone can learn to spell/pronounce the jargon and even use it with reasonable syntactic precision without any real concept of underlying meaning. Nigel's a seasoned professional *in this field*, as his diverse archived posts make clear, and can be presumed to know what he's talking about. (I also consider his probity to be beyond question, even though he's never sent

BTW, anent spelling, it's "strychnine" - from strychnos, one of nightshades, a motley family indeed. Talk about bitter - makes caffeine taste like honey.

-DM (formerly in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling some dandy poisons)

Dear Friends, I have planted, grown, nurtured and made Tea for eighteen years and am now into Blending and Packaging. Does that make me a know all? No, it simply makes me want to know more. This group and its postings have given me an insight into many aspects of my favourite beverage and my passion, and I would not discourage the group to discuss any aspect concerning Tea. But to doubt the credibility of members is simply not called for. I have learnt from Nigel's posts. Those who wish to differ, and whats wrong with it? Each one has a right to his opinion, and here is mine:- One of the main virtues of Tea is that "... it does you no harm". If it could indeed be used for tanning leather, the populace on the plantations would not be in such a pitiable state. Can the claimants of the presence of Tannic Acid in Tea let us know how to extract it and use it, YES, for tanning leather. it will at least reduce the use of some toxic chemicals in the leather industry, and perhaps provide an alternative use for Tea Waste and fibre. There is a humane aspect in this request, please do not ignore! Regards, Jayesh S Pandya.

Well, I think the people have spoken in defense of a mans honor... But since I have learned so much from Nigel as well, I must also say that I think this rude behavior deseves an aplology. Mean people suck. Jenn

Omega-3 FAs (which are PUFAs) are used by the body to make eicosanoids. These are important signaling molecules like hormones. They're involved in blood clotting, blood pressure, etc.

Useful:

Then that story about the tannic acid in tea must have been either a communist plot or the British Dairy Industry was trying to sell more milk ;-)

Whether it is spelled Strichnine or strychnine, it tastes the same and is just as effective.

Haf a great weekend :-)

Just to reiterate on this thread and to return to the original context:

The original "story" did not mention tannic acid - it mentioned catechins (antioxidant flavanols).

Black tea - the one that milk is generally added to - contains oxidised catechins (theaflavins) and polymerized theaflavins (thearubigins) - these are also powerful and beneficial antioxidants. Tannic acid is not an antioxidant, neither is it a component of Camellia sinensis tea.

The German study indicated a beneficial and measurable vein dilation at the measured site (the hand if I remember correctly) due to a recent intake of black tea, but this effect was reduced if milk was added.

However, the German study used a very small test group, used an all female test group, used tea at German drinking strength (weak), and used milk at 3 or 4x the normal (British) level. I would take this limited evidence as inconclusive and it certainly did not justify, as the BBC and other media proclaimed, a blanket condemnation of the use of milk in tea.

And just to summarize - nobody mentioned tannic acid.

Nigel at Teacraft

You can lower your blood LDL level by taking niacin, pyridoxine, pantethine, and oat bran.

By the way, the BBC article said "the caseins in milk prevented this effect by reducing the concentration of catechins in the tea," not that it destroys catechins.

I found it curious that they attributed the whole effect to nitric oxide. You'd think that would have been considered long ago, and there wouldn't have been any mystery about tea at all.

The tannins are supposed to be responsible for health benefits, and despite your bad luck with inquiries, I suspect they do tend to join up with proteins in the milk. In any case, your digestive tract is lined with epithelial cells which reproduce rapidly and slough off, contributing quite a bit of bulk to the output (pardon my French). So I wouldn't worry about the leather pouch effect.

I do believe you're mistaken, Nigel. Tannic acid, according to Merck Index 13, is simply a synonym for tannins in general, "the chemistry of [which] is most complex and non-uniform. Tannins may be divided into 2 groups: (a) derivatives of flavanols, so-called condensed tannins and (b) hydrolyzable tannins (the more important group) which are esters of a sugar, usually glucose, with one or more trihydroxybenzenecarboxylic acids."

Unlike most acids, "tannic acid" doesn't refer to any specific molecular compound, but is the name of commercial product used, among other things, for tanning leather.

If you go to the Wikipedia article, you'll find a link to a paper which refers to tea as a rich source of tannic acid.

For the record, I found the definition of tannic acid in /The Random House Dictionary/ to be consistent with that in /The Merck Index/.

Where did you find the formula for "Acidum Tannicum" (C14 H10 O9)? /The Merck Index/ calls that "digallic acid" and says that in "pharmaceutical literature the name digallic acid is frequently confused with tannic acid," and under "tannic acid" says "Incorrectly 'digallic acid.'" So it appears to me that you're either unaware of the confusion or trying to perpetuate it for some reason.

I wish I had a Nagra. All I could afford was a Uher.