Loose Tea vs. Tea bags

To respond to a few of the comments made here:

I lived in Japan for 10 years, and bagged green tea is looked on there in the same way that the gourmet coffee drinkers I know in the U.S. would entertain the thought of McDonald's coffee. The simple reason is that tea bags contain the "sweepings" that are left over after loose-leaf tea makers have first pick, plus twigs that wouldn't be allowed in the better loose-leaf green teas.

As for multiple steepings, the way the typical Japanese tea drinker does it is to put leaves in the pot and keep adding leaves and hot water as the infusion is depleted.

When I'm drinking tea at the office, I usually infuse three times, adding a pinch of new leaves for the 3rd cup (I use an over-the-cup infuser). With good teas, the second infusion has different qualities. Not weaker, but different.

Back to bags vs. leaves: I also think that more of the "good stuff" comes out of the leaves when they're free to flow around the teapot. I've tried putting loose-leaf tea (from mellowmonk.com) in do-it-yourself tea bags that I found at a local Japanese market, but the infusion just wasn't as good as brewing "unfettered" leaves.

Cheers,

Rich (a fogie newbie glad to be aboard)

welcome

--Tom

-oo- ""\o~

------------------------------------ "H*mo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto." Terrance

Rich snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com4/23/04

Hey, Rick, I'm with you. If the leaves are beautiful, as so many Japanese tea leaves are, than why not let them roam freely an enjoy themselves as you watch. Just adds one more dimension to the pleasure of tea.

Michael

Out of curiosity, what's mellowmonk.com's tea like? What's the service like?

The fact that they devote a site to selling only one tea makes me interested (& a little leery): I don't know what to make of this vendor.

Anyone with experience with 'em?

ZBL

About bag v.s. leaves, one of the reason for bag will be it keep everything in bags, so you won't have to deal with those unwanted leavings, but in traditional Chinese teacraft, those leavings were at the top of to-be-avoid list. Also, as a consideration of usages, bags are more likely to be applied in those fast serving circumstances, while loose leaves sits more on entertaining and relaxation side. Talking about diffusion of the chemical ingredient in tea leaves: as a common sence, it is impossible to analysis everything out of an organic body, another common sence, every ingredient has some effect on human body, so you will never know which one told you to drink more water or which one gives you a headache; But the ancestors of Chinese tea-lovers left all their experiences to later generations, and I haven't found any tea-bag dosages.

About Chinese tea v.s. Japanese tea, I never been to Japan and seldom drink Japanese tea, so I won't comment on this, but I lived in China longer than Rich lived in Japan, and began to drink Chinese tea almost

About the names to Chinese tea, as I said earlier, China was a huge country of agriculture and the tea was sitting at the top of the culture, and, Chinese linguistic system is too different compare western lingusitic systems, and if one want to map/image every tea name from an element-richer environment to a relatively limited expression, confusion, I am afriad, will be the only thing that one could expect. A donwn-side factor contributes to this confusion would came from the some dealers, especially those not that honest and those not having enough knowledge. From the middle of 19th centry, the Chinese original social structure was ruined by so many "things", and a health tea industry hasn't been restore yet by now, but unfortunately, there is nobody to be blamed...back to names, I don't think by only use original English without imported linguistic elements could help to clarify the confusion. Again, Chinese tea drinking is not only for a refresment, culture elements were built-in bolcks down to every tiny detail of tea drinking, enen on those names. So, if your central processing unit could only deal with English and rather reluctant to carry out an upgrade, I don't see any possibility for your system to deal with more complicated informations; and as to the confusion, maybe just stay in.

Seldom drink Japanese tea? Please do comment on this. What about Japanese tea finds you indifferent?

--crymad

I'm happy enough with their service. Last time I ordered, I ordered on a Sunday, so the tea didn't ship until the next day (which may be good compared to a lot of websites). I did get confirmation emails right away. Once the tea shipped I got it in a day (I'm in the S.F. Bay Area, like they are, however).

It's definitely a small operation. I hadn't heard of them until recently, so if they're new, they probably don't have the cash to expand into other offerings. (I ran my own business for a while and I know how tight money can be in the beginning.) Still, I like that they buy from family tea farms (plantations?) and they even give the names and photos of their growers, which I don't think anyone else does.

As for the tea, I drink a couple pots of it a day (every day), so I want a tea that (1) I won't get tired of drinking and (2) I can afford to drink that much of, and mellowmonk.com fits the bill on both counts.

Just my $0.02,

Rich

I think I got a strong habit in Chinese tea drinking, and don't think I could be able to give comprehensive comments on Japanese tea. I think one could easily find some difference after a brief research.

Like Rich, I've lived in Japan (but never China) and so got into the habit of drinking Japanese green tea. (I'll have to check out mellowmonk.com). About the only Chinese green tea that I've tried (knowingly, that is) yielded an almost brown infusion from dark green leaves. I thought it was either a misrepresentation, or a style of green tea that's more popular among the Chinese. I've heard that green tea isn't that popular in China (though I'm not disputing that they produce some fine ones, and I don't want to get into a Chinese-vs.-Japanese-green tea debate) but it is ironic that even in Japan most of the mass-market green teas, whether bagged, loose, or ready to drink, come from China now. That according to the proprieter of a Japanese market I visit occasionally -- for sake, natto, shishamo, and all the other wonderful things from Japan I can't seem to live without since moving back to the States.

What exactly do you mean by "mass-market" loose tea? Loose tea available in groceries and department stores? Because this tea is most assuredly Japanese in origin.

--crymad

Sean snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com4/28/04

Sean,

Regarding the "Chinese-vs-Japanese debate, I say No contest in the sense of "why contest?" I enjoy Japanese and Chinese greens, with my experience and overall preference leaning toward the latter. You did not, it sounds like, experience a good Chinese green tea. Now, at the beginning of May, is your grand opportunity. I strongly suggest a Bi Lo Chun or a Long Jin (Dragon Well) of good quality. These, *I* believe, are not that far removed from the Japanese style. They both offer a visual experience at once stunning and quieting. You will see. You can treat them as you would a fine Sencha or even better, if your Chinese tea is of really high quality, as you would a Gyokuro. If it is difficult for you to get these, please contact me off line, and I'll try to help.

It is my understanding -- we call for brighter lights here -- that in the green tea growing regions of China, which my map shows to be extensive, green tea is preferred. I have it on good authority that Pu-erh is becoming increasingly popular throughout China, and that in the Fujian, Taiwan, and maybe Guong Dong areas of China, Oolong is the style of choice.

I read Livio's last post. Like Jesus, in James' epistle....

Michael

By "mass market" I was referring to the major brands sold by big Japanese food companies, as opposed to teas available only regionally or in high-priced specialty shops. A lot of the lower-priced teas are from China and only packaged in Japan: The Japanese address on the package may just mean that the company's offices are headquartered there. Just as many teas sold as "Shizuoka teas" were grown elsewhere and processed (or maybe even only packaged) at a plant in Shizuoka. (And just as a lot of wines bearing the name "Napa" weren't made there, only "cellared" in Napa.) I'm sure there is a long list of "specs"--color and shape of the leaves and whatnot--that the Japanese company hands over to the processor, the same as if they were having memory chips made.

Mind you, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on a tea just because it's from China; in fact, the best greens this wide world may very well come from there. But it is a shame that the big companies that sell tea in Japan are putting small growers out of business there by switching to Chinese sources as a cost-saving measure. Michael Plant wrote: > Regarding the "Chinese-vs-Japanese debate, I say No contest in the sense of

You're right. I was simply revealing my ignorance with regard to the popularity of green tea among the Chinese, as well as my own limited experience with their greens. Thank you kindly for the recommendations; I believe I'll begin by seeking out a few at one of the Asian markets in the area. Ah, but the world of green tea is such a wide and diverse one!

Please give an example of a major brand of loose tea sold by a big Japanese food company.

--crymad

Major here or major in Japan?

--Blair "Doesn't Lipton do Japanese teas?"

Mitsui, for one, have set up many Japanese style tea factories in China using Japanese clones, Japanese steaming method of enzyme inactivation, Japanese process equipment (now made in China) and produce Japanese style tea for import into Japan.

Nigel at Teacraft

Does Mitsui/Nittoh sell retail loose-leaf green tea? I'm not aware of any. I'm digging through the Mitsui company homepage trying to get a breakdown of their product offerings, but the links aren't working properly for me at the moment.

That Chinese tea is imported into Japan is indisputable, though. Here is an article discussing the topic:

According to the article, Japan had a 2001 domestic green tea production of a little over 90,000 tons. Imported green tea from China that year totaled 17,700 tons. Of that 17,700 tons, approximately 8000 tons were used in the production of prepackaged tea drinks -- tea beverages in bottles and cans. Which leaves us with 10,000 tons unaccountable for; the article hints that some of this Chinese product is probably used as filler for mixing with domestic tea to keep prices down. The dining industry is another possible endpoint for some of this Chinese tea, either mixed or uncut, but the article doesn't address this.

At any rate, to suggest that Japan is awash in washi bags of Chinese tea posing as domestic beauties to be sold off to unsuspecting consumers is preposterous.

--crymad

They do, prepacked leaves in supermarkets and more often combinis. For the equivalent product, they are not cheaper than the specialty shops. I don't believe they cheat on the origine. In loose leaves, Chinese teas (sold as Chinese) tend to be more expensive than Japanese ones. The price of Japanese teas has droped a lot because of deflation. The lower-end loose leaves you get in discount shops are sold 200yen per 100 g, and sometimes less. They are grown and produced in Uji (I know people from there, they are not running a fictionnal tea plantation for tourists). Not all Japanese production is top grade gyokuro. The cheaper teas you can get, if you are really counting your yens are lower-end "made in Japan" houji-cha, kona-cha and genmaicha (it's written on some packs that the popcorns are grown in China).

I guess Mitsui and Suntory are producing tea in China mostly because they aim the Chinese market and maybe global exports (shrinking Japanese market is not worth the effort). And there, their interest is to sell "Japanese style tea" to differenciate from competitors.

Chinese tea is sold for itself. I don't know when you left Japan, Crymad, but at least in cities, the taste of people has evoluated and lifestyle for food and drinks is getting internationalized. People are used to foreign imports, half of them from China. It is done openly. Local supermarkets offer a choice of wulongs, flower teas, tuo chas and now greens too are getting very popular. Of course, department stores always had Chinese tea corners and they are specialty shops of Chinese products. In the last ten years, a number of Asian tea rooms have opened averywhere, and they also sell Chinese teas of average to top categories. For me, it's getting easier everyday to shop for top-grade Chinese teas.

In your figure, do they consider wulong and puer as green ? In many stores they do, they classify "kocha" and "sencha" (on shelves, on receipts), I suspect they count the same way. In such case 10, 000 tons seems little, but I don't know the share of Taiwan. I think globally, the amount of Chinese teas (Taiwan + China) is equivalent to that of Japanese teas.

But there is no "false Japanese tea" here. Anyway, it's a classical hoax. Also heard it about rice (that is supposed to be mass-produced in Australia and relabelled in Japan), about artisanal silk hand-made kimonos imported from Taiwan mass-factories, all hand-made potteries or objects being false cheapies, etc. That was probably published in a cheap tourist guidebook. Tons of foreigners just arrived in Japan tell you that. It's not that fraud doesn't exist in Japan, there are cases regularly, like anywhere else on earth. But massive "cheating" on quality products, I think the Japanese consumers would be the last ones to allow it.

Kuri

This is loose tea that must be prepared in a tea pot, and not tea bags?

I left Japan just a few years ago. Is Chinese tea really that much more popular now?

That is a good question. I kind of doubt it, though, as the article addressed foreign equivalents to Japanese tea.

My thoughts exactly. Chinese tea has found its way into bottles and cans, and perhaps even into low-grade tea as filler. But quality tea, the kind we here on this group concern ourselves with, remains home grown.

By the way, Kuri, are you Japanese?

--crymad

Loose or bags or instant. Even "junk" brands give the choice. As anyway most people will use a teapot regardless it's bagged or not, and they can fill non-weaven bags with the loose leaves. Mistui is not a major in real tea. I was looking for it today, no shop in the area has that brand. I don't remember where I've seen it, they are probably linked with a chain of combinis.

There are 2 things : about 4 or 5 years ago, the barriers to Chinese imports of food have disappeared. In 6 month time, 30 to 60% of supermarket/market products have been from China and labelled as such -after a little cheating at the start. At the same time, Western style discount supermarket have opened. Also the average price of food have drop of 50% (tons of shotengai shops and little farms made bankrupcy...). In Osaka, the change was spectacular. There was before and after. The people that would say "I buy only Japanese products." seem to have disappeared or they moved to live in the woods. You can no longer expect selling an ordinary product more expensive just because it's written "made in Japan" on it. Now, expensive products have to be special in quality.

The other reason is everything linked to Chinese culture is extremely fashionable. That also came in the last 5 years. NHK education channel proposes more Chinese culture programs than ever (several ones about tea). Eikaiwa industry propose Chinese conversation classes. Even universities had to increase the number of classes of Chinese as the students asked it. "Asian cafes" (specialised in Chinese tea) are opening in trendy areas -while the number of Japanese tearooms is dropping (I'm not sure many are left outside historical tourists area like in Kyoto or Nara). Also, if you browse the internet, you will find that doing exclusively Japanese tea ceremony is now a bit alt-modish. The young tea students still learn it -I'm talking about those that are serious in their interest for tea not the posers that kill time expensively- but they also study about other teas to become "tea sommelier". A bit like flower-arrangement has stolen most of the students from dusty ikebana schools. Of course, Chinese teas and serving manners are a major part of the new tea studies.

No, I'm French. I've lived in Osaka for about 7 years. Where are your relatives from ? Could they send you Shincha ? I've heard about that "anti-terrorist law" on TV the other day. It is an American domestic law to control imports, and the Japanese don't seem to have decided what to do. Several post-office directors interviewed said they didn't know how to register people or couldn't do it. They didn't say if they accepted the parcels anyway and if the US customs accepted or rejected them. This week, I'm enjoying the Kagoshima Nouveau (I guess the boat from China delivers there first, so it arrives earlier). I'll get of the new Uji this week-end, and also a new crystal pot to observe the beautiful color of the leaves.

Kuri