Meaning and scope of "bingcha" and "tuocha"?

Hi Joel,

Look at my Puerh Shapes page

or my Puerh Rosetta Page for the Chinese characters of these terms then look up the characters at for the literal definitions.

Yes, that is accurate

Yes, that is accurate

Yes, that is accurate

Yes I have seen greens packed this way although it is uncommon.

pu'er = a town in China known for tea trading since ancient times cha (as in puer tea) = cha2/tea/tea plant bing (as in cake puer) = bing3 / round flat cake / cookie / cake / pastry / tuo (as in bowl shaped puer) = tuo2/river/streams/waterways tuocha (2 symbols together) = "Bowl-shaped brick tea" tuan (as in ball shaped puer) = tuan2/roll around with hand fang (as in square puer) = fang1/a square/rectangle/a region; local zhuan (as in brick puer) - zhuan1/ tile/ brick jin = (I know it means small brick shape but I have not researched the proper Chinese character) san (as in loose leaf puer) = san4/scatter/ disperse/ break up

Mike Petro snipped-for-privacy@pu-erh.net

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

jin3 = tight

/Lew

Mike,

Excellent pages, great info. I would only dare to make one comment and one addition.

Comment: I think that translating "cha" as "tea" while 100% right for general purposes, for people deeply interested in tea certain notes should be added. The full and precise meaning of "Cha" is "steeped drink". Although

99% of the time it is made of C. sinensis, many other plants can be used. Translating it to English "tea" is still the best because in English "tea" can also be non-C. sinensis (Camomille tea, etc.).

Addition: There is a Chinese character that means :leaves of C. sinensis" - its ming2. It combines normal character ming - "name" with grass radical (same as on the top of "cha"). Unicode index U+8317.

On your "shapes" pages you said that you are still looking for the pinyin for the character for Tibet mushroom puerh. It is "gu cha" and you actually know that because its right there on your Rosetta page. :)

Sasha.

sinensis" -

Just a few remarks: The character "cha2" seems to be the graphical evolution of "tu2", a character that was used in ancient times to indicate a kind of "bitter vegetable". "Cha2" in its present shape, came in to use only in the Tang dynasty (8th century), with the composition of "Chajing" by Lu Yu, but it seems that the character "tu2" was already pronunced "cha2" when used to indicate C. sinensis in order to distinguis it from other "bitter plants". Regard to "ming2", ancient lexicographical dictionaries define it as "buds of tu2", which seems to confirm the identification of "tu2" with tea. It would also be useful to remind that tea was boiled and not steeped by the time the character "cha2" came in to use. Apart its historical development, the Chinese character "cha2", as its equivalent English word "tea", indicates basically three things: a plant, the dried leaves of this plant and the beverage prepared with these leaves. As a plant "cha2" indicates solely C. sinensis. If followed by the term "shu3" (genus), it indicates the whole genus Camellia, out of which C. sinensis is the only "drinkable" specie. As dry leaves and beverage it indicates mainly the leaves of C. sinensis and the beverage prepared with them. It can also be used for the leaves of other plants used for preparing drinks, but always preceded by the name of the plant: e.g. juhua cha (Chrisantemun flowers tea), xingren cha (almond porridge), kuding cha (beverage made with Ilex kudingcha).

Wonderful information, I envy your references. Can you actually say if cha2 connection to tu2 is a well-establishe fact and if yes, can you point me toward a ref? If its too difficult, forget it.

One thing though (about cha being as I aid - "steeped drink". Let us follow Einstein and and put together several thought experiments.

Experiment one: Person A who is a guest of Person B said in presence of others in Chinese (I am using the mix of English and Chinese so its easier for everyone to follow): " I want some CHA". Person B asked "What kind?" Person A : "I'd like some Chrisantemun flower CHA if possible"

If CHA HAS to be C. sinensis the person B would be surprised with the request for Chrisantemun flower variety. If CHA is a general "steeped drink", he will not be surprised.

My questions to you:

1. Will B be surprized? and if yes
2. How A should ask for a non-C. sinensis tea?

Cheers,

Alex.

Interesting topic, I'll tackle Livio and Mike later when I have the time, but let's look at your experiment now:

Let me subject your experiment to geographical shifts:

In China, Hongkong & Taiwan, where tea is more commonly drunk -

when A says 'I want some CHA', it is generally accepted that he means any beverage that might come under the name of tea, since you left the quantifier 'SOME' which leaves the option open. If A wants a C sinensis, he'll say 'I want CHA'.

In other parts of asia where chinese is spoken, the difference between C sinensis and non C sinensis beverage is blurred, and most are not particular where one ends and the other begins, so when A says 'I want some CHA', B is ready for whatever choice A comes up with.

In both instances, B is not surprised.

More commonly, the exchange might be:

A: I want some Cha B: What kind of Cha? English Cha or Chinese Cha? A: I want Chrysanthemum Cha B: Sugared or non sugared? A: Sugared...

Exactly. And, therefore, CHA should be understood in general terms as a "steeped beverage, mostly, but not necessarily from C. sinensis". And the best translation is "tea" because in English tea also may be made from other than C. sinenis plants. I am almost sure that when Chinese first saw coffee they must have called it some "CHA" before the adopted the contemporary, westernized name for it.

Sasha.

Hi there (Alex? Sasha?)

Just to point out your definition of 'Ming'. Your definition belongs to an archaic meaning, MING in the past - that's during the Tang dysnasty (AD618) & before. MING indicates more than being the leaves of C Sinensis, it actually meant the flush of TU, and TU did not only meant C Sinensis, but a collective term of leaves that makes a bitter brew. Both Lu Yu & Lu Yan Can made it very clear in their works The Book of Tea, & Contiuning The Book of Tea, respectively.

MING in present usuage does not indicate the flush, but the drink.

Lu Yu was probably the man who single handedly picked a handed to the world the word CHA from the list of words that could have or not meant C Sinensis. He first listed the few words that meant TEA as a beverage: CHA, TU, JIA, SHE, CHUAN, MING etc, and gave each other specific meaning in relation to tea. Then he picked out the word CHA and used it as a singular word throughout the rest of the book, thereby acknowledging the status of the word CHA as a PLANT, to indicate C Sinensis.

The confusion and debates often arise in Tea as a beverage. But that's another story.

sinensis" -

Ah no, when the chinese first knew coffee, they called it Ka Fei, after the word Cafe. I'm not surprised the French might the first to introduce the beans to the chinese, in Yunnan, where a small potent amount is still being cultivated...can anyone verify this fact for me?

experiments.

All my searches in contemporary dictionaries yielded MING as a word for C. Sinensis rather that tea as a drink. Can you quote your sources?

Sasha.

Yes. The definition of MING is taken from Xiandai Hanyu Xin Cidian, published by Commerical Press, on page 569: MING, used to indicate a type of tea leaf in the past, now it indicates a tea that's brewed...

In chinese MING is presently not used as a stand alone noun, it usually requires an adjective or verb to justify its existence. Hence the words Pin Ming - to partake in a session of tea drinking; or Xiang Ming - fragrant tea (not the leaf but the beverage). Another word which is rarely used, is Ming Ding, meaning intoxicated.

Samar.

Sasha,

If you could tell me which contemporary dictionaries you are using, maybe I can search through them and see also what their definitions are?