Puerh, Aging and the real name!

Hey,

Did you know the Japanese have invented a way to age/cure a Yixing teapot in a week or so. They made a machine that pumps hot tea water over a teapot consonantly and evenly 24/7. This makes the teapot super treated in just a short time and they in turn can sell them for more or as old. That is somewhat lame if you ask me however, an experienced collector knows what to look for in a real treated teapot.

Bran muffins.

--Blair "Wait. What?"

No, compost heaps.

--crymad

Michael snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com1/19/04

The curing method you describe is truly inscrutable.

Michael

Mike,

Your pu-erh site is coming along nice. (I'll revisit your kite site when and if the weather improves.) A question: You mention that the aging process continues oxidation. I would have thought it was fermentation that continues. Isn't it fermentation that makes pu-erh pu-erh?

Michael

snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com1/27/04 13: snipped-for-privacy@charter.net

Respect your opinion, but beg to differ. Oxidation for our purpose is the interaction between the chemicals of the leaf and the oxigen of the air. Fermentation is the result of the action of beasties on the leaf. Oxidation is what happens to turn a tea from "green" to red"; fermentation is what happens to turn tea into pu-erh.

All the above is my understanding. I leave it to brighter lights to adjust and correct.

Michael

snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com1/27/04 15: snipped-for-privacy@charter.net

Thanks, Jaq. I will. (But, I was only joking about the brighter lights.)

Michael

Oxidation and fermentation are one and the same process....Jaq.

snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com1/27/04 15: snipped-for-privacy@charter.net

I looked at some of the "tea oxidation and fermentation" posts. Yes, now I see your point. Since sloppy usage of the word "fermentation" to mean "oxidation" is so prevalent, it is no wonder that when "fermentation" is applied more accurately to the production, for example, of pu-erh it leads to confusion.

Best, Michael

Check Google---type in "oxidation and fermentation" to see what the "brighter lights" have to say....Jaq.

Correction to last message---Type in "tea oxidation and fermentation"

I like to split hairs as follows: Oxidation is to color as fermentation is to taste. Technically the process is oxidation between oxygen and enzymes to produce tannins. For fermentation you would need a catalyst like yeast to change the chemical structure of the leaf similar to the presumed spores to change the leaf to puerh. The only difference between Cheerios and beer is the alcohol content.

Jim

Yes,no doubt the expression"taken out of context"applies in this kind of situation.To tell the truth,I always referred to the process as "fermentation",until a friend referred me to the Google material...Jaq.

Well, my light's pretty dim these days, but I used to be an organic chemist. I also can't type for s*** (that's how seasoned netizens abbreviate "Starbuck's"), so let me say relatively briefly: both of the below are pretty close, except that yeast isn't a catalyst (it's the enzymes it uses internally or, like amylase and maltase from malted barley, releases) and, technically, fermentation can occur in the absence of living organisms.

Were I to hazard short definitions, I'd say that oxidation is any chemical process in which oxygen is consumed by incorporation into or cleaving pre-existing bonds. (This is way un-technical, but fairly inclusive for the purpose.) Fermentation has many meanings, but used with precision means either any biochemical reaction in which there's a lot of turbulent activity, e.g. from gas evolution, and/or in which larger molecules are cleaved by enzymes into smaller ones. Both occur in brewing (if you want a great conversation-stopper, try "zymurgy") where complex sugars are split into simple sugars, which are then cleaved and oxidized into alcohol plus CO2.

Lots of bio-things really do oxidize. The browning of apples and guacamole is an enzymically enhanced oxidation that's pH-dependent. Adding lemon juice or vitamin C drops the pH and adds anti-oxidants -> no browning. Some ferment w/o oxidizing. Anaerobic fermentation is often identifiable by the atrocious aromas it produces - they're atrocious because we've evolved to avoid rotten (i.e., anaerobically fermented) food.

Garlic has nil smell or taste in its native state. Crushing the cells lets an enzyme meet a substrate that, I suppose one could say, ferments to produce the notable pleasures. That's why cooking garlic uncrushed gives a mild nutty taste, and why the pungency of aioli depends much more on how long one grinds the garlic than on how much one uses.

Tea does both. There's some oxidation, and a lot of other chemical changes that count as fermentation. The simple proof is that leaves bruised under nitrogen still change color, though not in the same way. But direct oxidation of most organics is a very slow process. Even relatively reactive materials, like boiled linseed oil, only cure in hours or days in air. That business about oxygen in tea water is really pretty bogus partly because there isn't much oxygen in warm water, and partly because, absent enzymes that were destroyed when the tea was steamed or fired, reactivity is low.

Sorry to be boring and pedantic. There's probably a much better essay on this on the web someplace.

-DM

P.S. - The tannins were already there - they are sort of a continuum of the same structures that make up lignin, the complement to cellulose that makes wood inedible to most things. Their solubility is certainly modified by everything that happens to the tea - inluding brewing (where they complex with alkaloids) and serving (where they complex with milk protein).

P.P.S - The Cheerios/beer comment is right on. In ancient and not-so-ancient times, when calories were short, cereal and beer were considered interchangeable for keeping workmen going. hence the expression that one could take one's pay "in malt or in meal."

Dear Michael, The most accurate report on Puerh That I have seen so far. It is wonderful that you are so knowledgable about it. I drink tea too and Puerh is one of my favourite. Well done and thankyou. Simon Hau (simon snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com.hk)

Michael Ryan wrote:

While intrepidly exploring rec.food.drink.tea, Simon rolled initiative and posted the following:

You apparently missed the first 8 words of my response.

Thanks, Simon

I will always try to post something informative as often as I can. However, I have been quite busy lately.