First, I would like to say hello to all the tea lovers out there and hope that this initiation will lead to further discussions and comments that will prove informative to all. I am a puerh lover myself and have tasted over 100 different types of Puerh tea (both black and green combined). However it is the green puerh that fascinates me with it's range of flavors and complexity but with so many different brands and varieties available it has all been quite an adventure, made all the more confusing by not just the varied processing techniques that are employed by different companies but by the different types of tea leaves that are used for making the teacakes. There's the common cultivated tea leaves, the semi-wild, the wild, the leaves from young tea bushes, from centuries old trees, and then the highly desired thousand years old tea trees (this btw is unlikely to be available to the average consumer like us). Anyway does anyone really know the difference in taste between these different types of teacakes and if the taste is often as desirable as the words often employed to attract buyers?
I can't tell the difference in taste between cultivated and wild teacakes. I've tasted a lot but the wide scope of flavors appears to be the same. I would be most appreciative if someone could shed some light on this. From personal experience I've noticed that teacakes (same age) from young tea bushes (50yrs
Your question is fantastic! I currently have 169 different puerhs in my collection and I have tasted many more than that. One factor that complicates any attempt to categorize taste is that "truth in advertising" is not a concept being embraced by the Puerh Industry yet. Many teas are sold as being *wild* or *ancient tea tree* or whatever and very often it is simply not true, or at best only a small portion of the leaf used was truly *wild*. The same even goes for geographic claims. For example look at how much leaf was actually harvested from Yi Wu mountain in a given year versus how many *Yi Wu* cakes/bricks are being sold in the market. Combine this with different processing and storage methods and it becomes very difficult to develop a reliable taste profile. My research has shown that many times (possibly most) the cakes are actually made from a blend of mao-cha, where the teamaster uses different teas to bring specific characteristics to the cakes. So unless you know the *true* source of the mao-cha you cant really even begin to develop a profile.
I personally have observed such a wide range, often questioning the validity of the advertised pedigree, that I would be hard pressed to recognize cultivated from wild, young from ancient, etc in a blind taste test. I have noticed that *true* wild ancient teas tend to have a stronger qi than younger cultivated teas. I have also noticed certain regional characteristics. For example Jing Mai teas tend to be milder than other mountains. I have even added a *region* field to my Puerh database in hopes to develop profiles of the various regions. A recent offering by Chang Tai factory is a set of 16 different cakes from 16 different mountains/regions. I am very excited about this opportunity to develop these taste profiles. I have also heard rumors that 6FTM factory is planning to release a similar offering.
The main hallmark of tea is the variety in taste. I've never tasted any two mountainous Taiwan oolongs that were identical. The same for Fujian rock tea or Ceylon elevations. The tea from the sunny side of the hill might taste different than the shaded. There might be more moisture. The soil might be more acidic. The time of the year. The elevation. The environmental conditions go on and on. You can't even give Yunnan credit for ancient varietal versus Indian Assam. I look on the map and Yunnan is a big place from valleys to peaks. There are other teas from Yunnan than puerh. That's been my biggest discovery recently. There might be some common threads worth discovering about puerh but I've never attempted to classify tea tastes only drink and enjoy the moment with the variety from all over the world. The only two conclusions I've made so far a little puerh goes a long way. I think the raw reflects more the varietal in taste than the transformation of taste in the cooked. At the end of the day puerh is just more tea on the shelf. I don't really fret about the pedigree of the teas I drink. I do worry about the bottom line. But all things being equal I will say puerh is a good value for recent crops. Even the cooked ones which unfortunately I have seem to be the wet storage style (supposedly need airing) except one which I'll say is dry storage and is a standout. That's the way it goes in tea, some you like some you don't but that is only a moment in time. I just overbrewed a White Monkey from Fujian and it has an astringent bite without being bitter and a peachy flavor I only find in Taiwan oolongs. I haven't found a delicate tea yet that couldn't stand up to a little abuse.
Thank you for all your comments. Keep them coming. Taste can be influenced by many things like Jim has mentioned and Mike you've really nailed it for me. A lot of teacakes out there do contain a mixture of different types of tea leaves. Like you said some will be marketed as wild but the reality is that only a very low percentage of wild leaves are used. This mixture however makes it impossible to identify common characteristics in taste for these different types of puerh (cultivated, wild or puerh teacakes made from young or old tea trees). There are quality teacakes out there in limited production that are solely catered to puerh connoisseurs which contains no such mixture. The only mix would be in the grades of leaves used from the buds down, for ex. the leaves would all be 100% wild, or 100% from old tea trees. The price will be much more expensive but I'm sure there's a market for it. If anyone has managed to purchase such teacakes or experienced a pot we look forward to hearing from you.
Pu'er teas before 1940s - singular plantation Pu'er teas between 1940 - now from some main state ran factories - blend of maocha Pu'er teas now from new factories - singular plantation
Blend of maocha - this can be anything from a. leaves from different plantations b. leaves from different regions c. leaves from wild, part cultivated, neglected, cultivated higland, cultivated mid-highland, cultivated sea-level plantations d. young flush - one from spring this year, one from autumn las year e. mix of young and old leaves blah blah blah
Affecting factors on storing: a. high temperature & high humidity b. high temperature & low humidity c. Low temperature & high humidity d. Low temperature & low humidity e. vacuum pack f. natrual elements: soil, weather, etc g. yourself, metaphysically blah blah blah
Can you tell the leaves apart? Yes you can. Brew several samples, taste them, and leave the leaves in a glass of water overnight. Compare the leaves next day and document them. After a while, you can tell them apart. I can't, I'm too lazy. I'm happy as long as there's tea to drink! :")
Can you taste the leaves apart? Yes you can. But I can't, unless I brew the teas very strong. A friend can taste the tea and tell the difference, right down to the blend percentage. & I'm green with envy.
ps. Mike, 6FTM has produced some of the singular plantation teas, and if you do visit this part of the world, I'll keep some of the 16 regions for you.
I hope you're not a vendor looking for an opening but you never said how you could taste so much puerh. I've scratched off Menghai and Xiaguan from any future orders because I sense they are playing an economic corner the market game. I'm just ordering stuff from "no-name" factories because maybe they're small players with something better than the big guys and nothing to prove. I know that is an anthropological Western view. Maybe bigger is better in China. I cull TaoBao and Ebay China looking for new factory names and wrappers. Not that I'll ever get a chance to order something but I like to know it is there and what it cost. 6FTM has a series out now of 6 special regional cakes. I've got a couple that I haven't tried. There is a seller on Ebay China that sells the small factory stuff and I'm trying to push him into international orders. If I spoke the language it might be easier to convince him. I've got a wild tree cooked beeng and a wild tree raw log I think are distinct enough from others in aroma,flavor,leaf not represented as such. If in fact they're not I'll pretend they are. I don't see any reason why wild would be different than cultivated in the same area. It seems to me the end product is more influenced by processing factors than raw material. I worked in a canning factory during college summer months and the end result was graded by the hour for future sales too commercial labels.
Jim, I haven't crossed them off my list because I've had some damned good Pu'erh from them, but I agree totally with your general thesis that bigger is not necessarily better, and that the real finds are going to be had from the little guys. Further, we could talk about production closer to the source. I'm somewhat bothered by the idea that those little farmers send their leaves to the big factories. I'll bet among the no-namers are local farmers who do the whole production number right there under the trees and the stars. Those are the guys I want to find.
That seems to be the style nowadays.
Care to share? Otherwise, it's not a helpful revelation.
I've thought the same thing in general. Speaking and reading Chinese would be a real plus in our explorations.
I sense this to be true, although I haven't quite put my finger on the differences. My experiences are there, but they need to coalesce.
Could have something to do with age of tree, elevation, soil content, leaf size, who knows. Wild trees in one place, cultivated in another.
Like A+P vs. Food Emporium canned peas. Personally, I don't give a damn -- about the peas, that is.
BTW, hi James. Glad to see you here. I'm enjoying your insights. Are you a vendor?
I agree that big boys are not necessarily the best these days in the pu'er industry, but small no-name factories? Truth is, they are not necessarily any better, unless you know your pu'er, or take your chances.
Big boys have the resouce and experience to back them, so in the churns of their mass products that flood the market every year, there are still some good finds, they are playing an economic corner of the market, who hasn't in the history of trade and economy? We as consumer should be the selective one - the cash is in our hands, right? - and pick out the good ones from these big boys.
The small unknown players usually lack the resource and experience of the big boys, so in their productions, there are also a lot of room for trial and error - so just as for the big boys, we have to be selective in our purchase and know our pu'er - and by the time they become more 'stable' in their productions, they would have made a name for themselves and prices will begin to pick up.
When the former body of CNNP was established in the 1930s, the chinese govt in appointed several factories in Yunnan as the main producer of Pu'er teas, while many smaller factories are appointed as supplier of mao cha, the raw tea. Teas plucked by farmers in the local regions were brought to these small factories where they were processed and then delivered to the main factories for the final blending and compressing, and drying. It was a division of labour borne out of necessity of the time.
When the tea industry was privatized, small factories began to emerge as players in the market as well - some of them has made names for themselves, and as such, begin to demand higher pricing - as is now happening to some of these one time small players. Riding on the pu'er heat, other factories which formerly do not produce Pu'er also began producing pu'er; there are also chinese entrepreneurs who, seeing the increasing demand for pu'er, began to invest in small rural farms and turn them into production factories, usually with simple equipment - and this is where the trial and error comes in.
Pu'er, in all my encounter with this tea, is subjective. What Jim has culled on Taobao and likes, determines his preference in terms of taste of this tea. I'm sure there are others who scoff at the offerings from Taobao or eBay, and readily dismiss the products as 'not-the-real-thing' or as inferior.
My opinion is that if the tea doesn't make you unwell, and you like it enough to drink it again, it is a good tea for you. The authenticity in year of production, the price that 'aged' cake fetches etc, that's for a different class of collectors. My thumb of rule is that as long as a vendor prices a cake at a reasonable price, I'm fine with it, be it real or not-the-real-thing (damn, I'm doing the Harry Potter "he-who-must-not-be-named"!). But if a vendor sells a recent cake and calls it "very aged" for a high price, then I think it's dishonesty.
Whether we are to buy from big boys or unknown factories, the important point is that we have to have some background on pu'er knowledge, and trust our own tastes - someone can wax lyrical on a cake, but if you don't like it, you don't like it. Period. Steering away from Menghai and XG products would be one's loss in tasting some of the better or even great pu'ers, and scoffing at small unknown factories may leave one with regret later.
We just have to carrry a spirit of adventure in us when we venture into the world of pu'er and tea!
I just ordered a kilo of Menghai Dayi tuochas. Now I can scratch them off my list. If I ever can order from TaoBao or Ebay China I'll let the group know. 6FTM has a series from 2003,2004,2005. 2003 looks like hieroglyphs, 2004 the colored circle borders, 2005 the date with their simple icon motif. The prices on the 2003 are already through the roof with 2004 not far behind and 2005 catching up. You can find
2004 and 2005 on Ebay. I've got an uncooked wild tree and cooked from
2004 which I haven't tried. The post from Danny indicates 6FTM is possible single plantation. Hopefully for their series. The only peas I'll eat are Green Giant LeSueur Early June Peas.
If I ever can order from TaoBao or Ebay China I'll let
...I believe I wrote: Generally... The single plantation products from 6FTM would be these (personally, I have my reservations, having tasted them all)
It's only forever until the next time I place an order after I exhaust the limited no-name factories available in the Western market which might be the next order. Your link is the 2005 crop. This is the first link for the 2004 crop
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I didn't see anything for the 2003 crop which is one of the strangest wrappers I've ever seen. My favorite Xiaguan product is the "Precious Flame 250g Tibetan Mushrooms". I'm still working on the first stem I broke off. The best of both worlds.
Ahh...so it's not forever then, and you might return to the big boys...good to know that you are abandoning them forever...
You are mistaken, Jim. The link I provided is the 2004 production, not
2005 - where did you get this wrong info that they are 2005? The cakes in this link actually have been in production since 2002, the first batch was a consignment to a vendor in Taiwan called Da You. It has steadily been in production since then.
The link you provide above are also from the 2004 production. There are 12 cakes in this series: 6 cooked, 6 uncooked, each mirroring the other. The cooked version has orangy brown designs framing the edge, the uncooked has bronzy ones. They are blended, with leaves collected from different tea regions in Yunnan: Xishuangbanna for the uncooked, Menghai for the cooked. This series is not a study in leaves from single plantations, but teas from different grades. I hope you did not buy them in the hope that they are single plantation.
This is specifically 2002:
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6
And this is 2003 :
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9
most of the Precious Flame (Baoyan) tuochas from XG in the market are from
2002 and after. they are divided into cooked and uncooked, with a 'classic' edition on the uncooked that comes in a box.
Thanks for the warm welcome! No I'm not a vendor but I sense a real inhospitality towards vendors here. I myself would actually welcome the opportunity to be kept informed of the latest products and offerings. No one can force you to buy anything and the final decision is and will always be yours. Anyway Jim to be able to taste over a hundred different types of puerh isn't a lot in my estimation for a crazed fan who has often thrown logic out the window in his search to learn more about this unique tea. I would like to emphasize the word taste and not buy, because a lot of tea I've tasted I didn't buy. A few trips to China and stopping by a few of the many tea shops available can really hike up one's tally.
I'm sure the Fed will appreciate me not spending any more dollars on Menghai to reduce the 240 billion dollar trade deficit.
The new series has the year 2005 printed on the wrapper:
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which I thought was a new requirement besides relying on wrapper blemishes in the future to determine dates.
There is a year printed on the wrappers of your links but not mentioned in the description:
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but I can't make anything out. That would be the first example of a voluntary date I've seen that wasn't commemorative in nature. I understand the year on a wrapper doesn't necessarily reflect the year the material was produced. You see that with the XG Millenia tuocha where the 2003/2004 crane emblem was used with material produced in Jan
2000.
I just checked my two 2004 6FTM and you are correct on the border edging reflecting cooked or uncooked because I have one of each. I haven't run across anyone guaranteeing a single plantation. The auction for the 2003 "6FTM" series with the strange wrappers rolled off TaoBao since yesterday but they appear ever so often. Maybe it was another tea processing factory in this general area but I think I would have noticed something like that.
My Baoyan has a date printed by hand 2004.12.1 which I think is yyyy.dd.m or maybe almost a year later. It is a blend of cook and uncooked. The three 250g mushroom tuochas came in a bag where the 750g weight was preprinted.
It is still an impressive pu vitae even for a lowai in China. On this side of the Pacific all we can do is order by the kilo from China to help pay for the shipping cost and hope for the best to supplement anything found in Chinatown. So far I haven't found an uncooked I don't like. I've only found one cooked I really like and one I almost like. The others I can only drink with a meal. I'm not sure of the discrepancy. Stick around you'll become informed and educated on where to spend your money by special interest.
You can if you blow up the picture, but the giveaway is the 'totem' figure on the left bottom next to the 2 lines of characters. That is limited to
2004 production. The 2 lines show the year in both georgian and lunar calendars, the bottom line tells the amount that was produced - all similar to the 2005 picture that you sent.
That would be the first example of a
True. Some factories have followed suit, Chang Tai has begin printing the date of production on the wrapper from the 2005 productions onwards, which is good news to the collectors. Wrong. The year on the wrapper does usually reflect the year that it was produced, but not necessarily the year of the raw tea picked and processed...more complication, but let's save that for future...
Sorry, I don't understand what you said...the crane emblem was used since March 1992, so it is not a wonder that it is on the 2000 tuocha. Are you talking about the XG "Celebrating the 100th Anniversary" 250g bronzy design tuocha? That was produced in 2002, not 2000 or 2003/2004.
That would be regular product from XG. Cook and uncooked?!?! Sigh. Misconception, misconception...
You say 2004, I say 2005, we both got dates to prove it. I haven't seen anything with your 2004 date on a wrapper. Maybe the earlier plantation material is still available for 2005. It still reminds me of my canning days. There were two dates: canning and labeling. So the Crane emblem on a XG tuocha isn't an anachronism when the production date on the bottom of the box says Jan 2000? I'm not going to worry about it but someone in the know pointed to an article saying the Crane emblem was first used by XG in 2003/4. It was the first example of a forgery discussed in the group. It was then I discovered as you suggest any later wrapper can be used on earlier material. It didn't stop me from stocking up at the time at a buck each because the blind men get real chatty when they get to the elephant's trunk. Any black molasses leaf I see I assume is cooked. Any dull green leaf I see I assume is uncooked. When I see them together maybe it makes sense for consumers with mostly red meat and cream food groups. I learned a long time ago playing dumb is often the best way to get help. Thanks for your replies because it is new ground.
Obviously you are a tough nut to convince, haha. Check your sources again. Like I said, the 2004 has a totem logo on the bottom left. The 2005 which you sent, does not display that logo on the cakes. The totem logo is visible enough without blowing up the pic, it looks like a chicken walking upright.
The other thing, is that if you bloow up the pictures, you'll see - in the lunar calendar characters - that on picture from the liudachashan.com it is written in chinese character "Jia Shen Nian" (2004). while on the picture you provided it is written as "Yi You Nian" (2005) - but if you look closely you'll see the numbers written there. Perhaps this will make it easier for you? It's from your preferred shopping site:
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There may be a misreading somewhere... The Crane Emblem was used on TUOCHA since 1992, the Crane Emblem was used on BINGCHA only from Dec 2003 - some said early 2004. Hope this clears up the issue for you.
I never doubted your explanation. You initially wondered why I thought there was a 2005 series. You pointed out the 2004 series on their website with clarification of the date which I couldn't see or understand. I pointed out a 2005 series which may or may not contain the same plantation material you mentioned for 2004. Ooh Google never forgets who was claiming the Millennia tuocha I bought with the Crane emblem was a forgery. Earlier this summer there was still some left on the shelves. For those with a Chinatown it is worth a trip. It's already nearly six years old. I can almost smell the camphor. Thanks, Danny.
Jim
PS: Millennia is the name I gave because of the Jan 2000 production date on the bottom of the box. There won't be a new Millennia till
3001. I wished I could get that 2004 > > You say 2004, I say 2005, we both got dates to prove it.
And Millennia is the name you gave, not the one XG gave.
For that's worth, XG has been producing mediocre fares these last several years, but if anyone's seriouly thinking about collecting some XG products, I strongly recommend the Nan Zhao bingcha and tuocha. These are very different from the regular XG products! You'll have to google around for some vendors who give resonable price on the teas though, the one I saw from one reputable online vendor is selling it 5 times the price I got it for!
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