I don't get a discount. I don't get a commission. Usually, I get the satisfaction of knowing I've shared something that may interest someone as it did me. I am, though, very, very sick of being bullied. The tyrannical approach with which he seizes this list is disturbing and pitiable and I am sincerely hoping that someone with some computer or list savvy can find a way to put an end to this. For all intents and purposes, it feels as though we are all being held hostage by this abuse of "freedom of speech". Unfortunately, these vicious and ridiculous tirades have resulted in valued members leaving. I have hesitated to "throw up my hands and surrender" to such unfathomable nastiness, but to come home from working in a hospice and then hope to read a good bit about tea and have to suffer through this verbal battering is too much. Initially, I thought that if Space Cowboy should appear in anywhere on any thread, I will not post. I guess I have to say, he wins. I can't cope with this much more. Shen
Alas this is one of the downsides to forums like this - people can say what they want without a) thinking how it might be interpreted or received by others and b) with little or no consequences.
I just add people I can't be bothered with to the 'Blocked Senders List' on Outlook Express. I don't see his or any other posts I don't want to. Of course people can change their 'handle', but it's only a matter of time before their real persona re-emerges and they get added to our Plonk Files once again.
I know OE isn't the most popular/useful reader our there, but it's free and allows me to read my news and filter out junk that I don't want to see. Meets my simple needs perfectly.
I can't speak directly about your particular situation, but I too really just wanted to give up on this group. I have dealt with more bullshit behind the scenes than anyone could imagine, and I agree it gets to be tedious and lose any appeal. I would get strong hate mail from both the spammers I'd call out (which didn't bother me) *and* from group members who either fancied themselves "experts" or took on the attitude of letting people decide for themselves and if they get taken, so be it. I don't agree with that, and do my part to keep both members and people who might just roll by from getting taken by known scammers. It's frustrating.
I've also grown tired of some of the really off the wall stuff and the super technical babble that really serves no purpose other than to show off. That kind of thing excludes more than it includes. Sure sometimes it is legit and very informative, and those are not my point of contention. Again, not always just because *I* don't like it but because it pushes away newcomers.
Some might say, so what? Who needs 'em? But fresh blood is always a good thing. The other problem is that many of the most knowledgable folks are the most quiet, that doesn't help either. Many forums/ newsgroups tend to fall into an obsessive crowd who has lost sight of reality and actual enjoyment and becomes just an area of collection/ obsession and this one had a good mix for a change. I've gone into that obsessive/collection mode myself a few times over the years, but I've always broke out of it as soon as I saw it rear it's ugly head. There is a fine line between a hobby/interest and an obession.
I don't really know where to go from here. This group still has some really amazing folks and I'd hate to think of days not filled with cool insights and information, but it is certainly a shell of its former self. I thought leaving was the thing to do, but I also thought that I was kind of taking the easy way out and not helping in any way. Not that I'm that important or think I make or break the group, just that one less is one less.
FWIW, what I saw was a good intentioned move turn out to be something other than what you had thought... it happens, it happened to me with that Zong Guo Cha or whatever they were called, and in fairness they had very good tea but their prices were a bit high. Nothing you can do but be honest. Maybe taking the bait and arguing over it was just the wrong choice and it would have been better left with an: I'm sorry if it's not for you, I was happy with it and wanted to share.
It can get personal, and it can cause you to lose your mind even. I guess the best option is to just keep on truckin and let it roll off. Sometimes easier said than done. Don't feed the trolls, as they say. Or as one of my favorite (but certinly not PC) Internet sayings goes: Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win your still retarded. You'll never change their mind, they'll never change yours and when anonymity and non-face-to-face conversations happen people feel it is their duty to become an ass the likes of which they never would in real life. That's the Internet, always has been, always will.
Just my 10 cents worth.
- Dominic
/I just drank some Tai Ping Hou Kui that I'll try to review tomorrow, and was in a relaxed and happy mood to type a long and drawn out response. There might be something useful in there somewhere.
Thank you, both. I will take your insight to heart. I am setting up my OE tonight. Whatever may come, I do really appreciate (Dominic) your articulate and affectionate approach to green teas and whether I contribute or not I will enjoy reading your reviews. Shen
Ya, I'm sorta with you guys too. I've gotten into the strangest arguments here, with seemingly little outcome, that often came down to name calling and ad hominem. It always sorta burns me up when people tell try to tell me how much they know about China when I live here and see the things everyday. Then they can use that against me and say my view is biased or something.
He does like to ramble like us all, but, why don't you just ignore him? Is it so serious to read everything that he, or anyone else, posts and reply in anger? Sometimes you just have to let it go. Experienced "forum", BBS, or NW goers have had their fair share of arguments...but it comes down to one thing. You can simply walk away from the computer, have a cup of good tea, and relax.
Heh, that's one of my favorite stupid arguments online. Arguing with someone who LIVES in a place because you fancy yourself an "expert." I also particularly enjoy those who try to pick nits with me on technical issues/forensics/scammers... umm, I spent a few *years* working on some still highly classified projects that keep them safe every day on the Intertoobz but what the hell would I know? Then if you state your credentials they then act as if you are showing off or grandstanding. What kills me is that people wouldn't dream of acting that way in real life: Walk into your Doctor's office and disagree with his diagnosis then claim that the certificates and diplomas on the wall mean nothing and are simply his way of showing off. It's plain stupid, but people find it a normal way of life online. Everyone's an expert.
I personally find those who live in different areas remark's fascinating and insightful. How much more relevant can you get than someone who lives it daily? I just wish I could hear more tales straight from China.
Oh, and BTW here is a link to a solution for killfiles in Firefox for Google Groups. It involves the Greasemonkey add-on and a small script. There are other solutions as well if you search.
Another instance was when PWK quit the forum because of the banters here attacking his credentials, even though he did not exert authority on the subject matter (at least not here) and when in fact he expressed his thanks to all of those who "educated" him.
I blog about tea (and wine), exchange thoughts and read RFDT to ~LEARN~...or as MarshalN aptly put it, to have a "constant tea meeting", albeit online.
Umm, if you are talking about Peter Keen and my views... I stand by them 100% (1000%). I have zero respect for so called consultants who offer nothing more than vague ideas and give paid talks. I have worked in higher education (in technology) for a total now of 5 years as well as over a decade in the corporate world and volunteer my time to help educate less fortunate and older folks. I have seen and dealt with hundreds of Peter Keens, and if you were in my shoes and have dealt with it as often as myself you'd have very little tolerance for it as well. Too often in technology the saying: "Those who can do, those who can't teach" rings true. I pride myself on doing, and researching, and constantly learning and progressing... the teaching and talks are ancillary and are more personally fulfilling to me than money. I know that when I cover a subject, that I am a master of the subject matter and have actually used and worked with the technology in real-life situations extensively... not just theory and books, if I can't say that I don't teach it. I defy you to find many technology "consultants" "professors" or "trainers" who can say that. I have a burning fury of pure hellfire for those who do because they are the problem not the solution. I could make 10 times what I make as a cheesy "consultant", speaker, and writing fluff books on new technologies or ethereal ideas with no practicality, I don't. I have done work in certain situations as a consultant and clients are always amazed that not only did I listen to them, but I suggested a proper solution (not buzzwords and a partner technology), and in most cases actually implemented the solution and supplied training that was targeted and useful... That's sad when 99% of the time these people are so used to getting taken and ripped off by "consultants" that only offer a vague idea and grab a check. It's because they couldn't dig in and get their hands dirty if their lives depended on it.
I have no respect for scammers and frauds or people who use certain topics to simply make money or add to their notoriety. Look, no one can defend someone who is both writing a book and holding a big fancy tea gathering when they barely know enough to even be considered competent in the area. Good intentions are not enough sometimes.
In my opinion he ran because his thin veneer of authority was questioned and academics aren't used to that. It sounds impressive to tout a list of books and speaking engagements, and in academia many accept that blindly and assume credibility. I knew exactly who he was and just what B.S. he was full of, I called him on it, he ran away. That is far different than attacking someone for a good intentioned mistake or because they are new/uninformed... which I would never do.
- Dominic
PS, please feel free to question me or anybody... if they are legit they will happily and calmly offer a response. The only areas of my personal and professional life I can't divulge are classified projects that even my fiance/family don't know about.
Thank you and Will Yardley for this tip. It works well! I'm not a computer person; but, the download instructions were very easy to follow and it seems to work efficiently. Shen
I've recently come to the conclusion that information on the internet can be one step BELOW bathroom grafitti. It takes some amount of effort to physically go to a public restroom, and may take forethought to take a writing implement. Many people today spend a good deal of time in front of a computer, whether for their job or for fun, so it takes almost no effort to type a few words, click, and off your message goes into cyberspace. Take a look at comments on a few youtube videos and you'll see what I mean. Also, notice how many discussions on IMDB deteriorate as soon as someone disagrees with what someone else has written. My favorite: accusations of racism when someone doesn't use the "currently accepted" terms. I remember one thread in which the poster was accused of all sorts of horribly prejudiced statements and motives for using the term "oriental" to refer to a person. Turned out this person who hated Asians was Chinese.
There's no need for anonymous internet discussions to deteriorate to the lowest common denominator. Why not try to raise them and keep them at a civil level? Treat posters the same way you would someone standing in front of you. Disagree without being abusive and vindictive. Or, if you're someone who doesn't like to read that type of posting, be glad that you can disagree with someone without resorting to mud-slinging and name-calling.
We could take a lesson from modern animal training: reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior. Don't punish bad behavior; any attention is better than no attention at all. Eventually we'll all be the better for it.
P.S. If you want this group to be about tea, then post about tea! If you want the petty bickering and baiting to stop, don't participate. I know it's sometimes hard to let someone else have the last word when that word is negative, but use the anonymity of the internet to your advantage: what do you care if someone you don't know or respect gets the last word? Let them have it and feel smug in your own superiority! (Kidding!)
I agree, though "the medium is the message" and whenever we deal with other humans (or near-humans) in a medium we are inextricably bound up in that medium. Which means that it's almost impossible to avoid talking about the medium itself quite often.
I also agree that posting on anonymous message boards is about as safe as one can get, and this allows the basest human behaviors toward one another to flourish.
Having said that, I've killfiled maybe 300 "people" in my time on usenet, and that removes about 95% of the BS. So, just as in crime and other things, a tiny percentage is generating the vast majority of the crap.
Dear Alan, Perhaps, you have not been aware of the issues that provoked my post. You see - I am kind. I do post about tea and refrain from mud- slinging. I raise the level of conversation whenever possible. But, as ethically as I behave, I am not a fool. Space Cowboy makes no sense, ridiculously demeaned me and chose to make me the brunt of his venomous tirades. After not responding at letting this idiot's badgering go on, I engaged and yes, you are right about that. That was my mistake. It's a moot point right now. I've file killed him and he will not have to appear on my screen again. This person is not worth anyone's time. But, I will not be bullied from this list where I have made made contributions and, in turn, learned so much. Shen
Granted, though I never called myself an expert; ever. I do however believe that I know more about China than someone that has never even visited for a short period of time. I've lived here for nearly 4 years and I can speak Mandarin and a few dialects...that ain't TOO bad in your books, is it? I've visited tea farms, have friends in the business, and go to tastings with some pretty knowledgeable folks in the industry from time to time. This all in China. If you think that's bragging, sorry you feel that way; I was just stating fact.
I doubt it. If you heard half of what is being said about the market these days, you may not want to drink tea anymore.
relax bro, all anybody here "is," is words on a screen. I can't imagine how anybody could push your emotional buttons like that on usenet of all places. It's like going to an insane asylum and getting pissed off that there are lunatics there. Take the "people" here seriously at your own risk
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