Newbie Question-Hold Your Fire!

There are many folks in this NG who know French wines, and I'm not one of them. However, I do know that "Bordeaux" wines can be almost anything

- white or red. It depends on the subregion of Bordeaux where the wines are made. For example, the Medoc (Saint-Estephe, Margaux, Pauillac, Saint Julien) produces Cabernet Sauvignon based wines, whereas Pomerol produces Merlot-dominent wines. The only wine I recognize in the French wine department is Beaujolais!

Maybe not Cabs and Syrah/Shiraz, but if you need some good red-sauce pasta wines you might stop in the Italian section a pick up a bottle of Antinori Santa Christina Sangiovese.

I hope the friendly folks in this NG will provide some suggestions because I'd like to know also.

Dick

"Dick R." wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@visi.com:

The fascination with Bordeaux is the variety of nuances available to the consumer. This is partly the product of tradition, but the quality aspects of the area are (for growing grapes) largely borne out by the product.

However, I would add, and this is only a personal opinion, that this 'mystique' only really holds for the mid-higher end of the wines. The lower end (including, but not limited to branded products from the region) are much more akin to the Australian / Californian products which are much derided here in this group. That is, they give a fairly uniform product which is made more for consitency than excellence. There are a few lower mid-range chateaux producing splendid wines for their money, but this doesn't seem to be a general blanket assumption one can make.

To come back to your quest for the heavy-bodied wines, I think you might be disppointed in the Bordeaux (but see my comments below). By all means try a few, but I think you will find most are approximately medium-bodied (compared to the big Australian shirazes at least).

That's Cristina (although it is listed as both in many places, for some reason). And it's not very heavy / unctious (if at all ...) In fact I would class it as light/medium bodied, bit too much acid. Versatile but light. (Try a Chianti Classico Riserva for a bit more weight)

However, in Italy, something with a bit more weight would be Brunello di Montalcino (try the Banfi wines for a reasonably-priced version). If you like good wines with a bit of body, try a bottle oa Amarone. So gloriously heavy you could stand a spoon up in it. Just right for those wintery stews.

If you must stick with the Syrah/Shiraz, stay in France but try the Rhone where you will get (IMHO) better value, and something a bit more like you have been used to. Chateauneuf-du-Pape (blends containing Grenache, Syrah and Mouvedre - in fact up to 13 different grape varieties) might be the best to try (don't go for the cheapest, they tend to be rather thin). Possibly move to a Cote-Rotie if you want a bit more concentration.

Salut/Hi Larry,

le/on Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:27:49 -0400, tu disais/you said:-

No.

At its best (extremely rare) it's a perfect combination of flavours, scents and subtle length. However, it is completely different from Syrah (Shiraz) or Zinfandel, and isn't in any way like the full bodied style that you seem to like.

That's not to say that I feel in any way better than those who don't like Bordeaux, but they're (the wines) very different and I feel it's best to develop your taste for wine more widely before jumping into the winefield of Bordeaux.

One problem with Bordeaux wines, is that it is simply a very broad geographical description. A bit like saying "California", or "Australia". So just as you can get a very wine range of styles and qualities from both of those countries, so you can from Bordeaux. That said, to get approval to be allowed to put AOC on the bottle, the tasters have to decide that the wine is typical of the style. So although there ARE wide variations, a white dry Bordeaux is always more or less similar, same goes for a red, same goes for a semi sweet or a fully sweet. I think it's fair to say that most people, when you say "Bordeaux" think in terms of a red Bordeaux, which will be made from one or more of 6 grape varieties (Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot Carmenère- though the last two/three are present in very small quantities). These wines are rarely very full bodied, though some Pomerols (an area of Bordeaux, like Rutherglen is an area of Australia) in an appropriate year can be quite full bodied. The sad reality, however, is that of the millions of bottles of "Bordeaux Rouge" that are made each year, less than 5% are truly great, perhaps less than 1%. And of course the demand for these truly great wines is so enormous that the price is way beyond the budget of most ordinary people.

At the same time, there is a great mass of what can be called "good quaffing bordeaux", but which aren't in the same ball park as the best, sadly. They often give realitvely good vfm, at least in France. In the US? I can't say I find their prices reasonable at all.

Riding on the back of the reputation of the top magic wines, there is also a lake of indifferent stuff that frankly ought not have the right to be called Bordeaux at all, in my opinion, if the name "Bordeaux" is to have pretensions of excellence. In FACT, AOC anything simply means that it comes from the area and is made with the right grapes and with acceptable limits of yield.

So, asking "What's so great about Bordeaux?" is a little like asking "what's so great about Australia?" And will get the same answer. "Nothing". However in both places the best is magic.

The downside of the best wines from Bordeaux (especially) and Australia less so, is that the very best red wines from these places need a very long time in bottle to be wonderful. The better the property and the better the year, then generally, the longer you _can_ keep the wine and the longer you MUST keep it, if it's to be palatable. So for a lesser wine from a moderate year, you may find it's perfectly quaffable at 5 years old, while Ch Lafite-Rothschild 1961 is only now reaching its best, I read recently. A very big red bordeaux drunk very young always used to have has mouth puckering tannins and searing acidity, IMO. These were needed to give the wine the capacity to age for very long periods. Some properties are now making wines that are less testing when young, though it's not clear whether they will ever get as great as older style wines, or live as long. Equally, some people have developed a taste for younger red Bordeaux.

Well, you could try looking at Spain for Riojas. A rioja tinto can be pretty full bodied. In Portugal, there are some lovely Daos. Others can advise you better about Italy. Other countries making full bodied reds are Argentina and Chile.

As is often said here. "So many wines, so little time".

Hi Larry;

While you're running back and forth twix France and California has it occurred to you to take a quiet stroll down the Rte 81 Niagara Wine Route right here in your own back yard? A ton of good wineries all around you here trying hard to make world class product. A hell of a place to learn the wine business..... I find it pretty interesting.

Hope this post isn't a repeat . Me thinks the first one got lost somewhere over the Atlantic ;-)

This line answered it all for me. Many peoples' opinions should/are well respected in this Ng- yours included.

Many thanks Ian,,

(Ok ....your's too Dick)

And you're right Chuck. My cart should hit the Ontario section one in a while.

Larry Stumpf, S. Ontario, Canada

I don't think Mr. Dale Williams has ever said this!

Sean

Ian has a nice overview of Bordeaux. My only quibbles would be with the use of the word "full-bodied". I think of a lot of good Bdx as full-bodied - big mouth-filling wines with lots of tannin and good acidity. I think Ian however probably read (correctly ) the OP's use of the word- to mean a wine with big flavors right off the bat. Which is not Bordeaux's strongpoint- classic Bdx is wine that is meant to develop for years.

I will say, however, that there are some f>The

I think that any derision in this group towards Oz/Cal products comes from 2 reasons. The first, as you note, is a preponderance of competent but unexciting industrial wines. These can be produced anywhere, but Oz Shiraz and big California producers seem to have a lot of marketing savvy in these types of wines. Second is a stylistic choice. Some people, like myself, tend to prefer wines with more acidity. Some warm climate styles tend to be very round (low-acid). That doesn't mean the wine isn't good, just not a style that appeals as much to me (it certainly appeals to a lot of people). But I hope I don't deride those products. I have some Oz wine cellared (Penfolds products especially) , and actually quite a few California wines.

Best,

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Larry, Your first question has been amply answered, so here's my 2¢ on #2. Reasonable choices for other wines to try given your preferences would be California Zinfandel (look for Cline or any producer starting with "R"), Chateauneuf-du-Papes from France (if you can find the 2000 Guigal, give it a shot) and the reds from Valpolicella in Italy (A to Z producers here, Allegrini and Zenato), including Amarone and Ripassas. Other big red wines, such as Hermitage and Cornas from France and Brunello di Montalcino and Barolo from Italy, are less fruit-forward and less approachable in their youths. If you like CdPs, you might try venturing further up the Rhone river, but take it slowly...

Mark Lipton

Salut/Hi Sean E. Slindee,

le/on Sun, 28 Sep 2003 03:31:02 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I wasn't aware that I'd attributed it to him. What's your problem?

No problem. Just an observation. Dale is a wine tasting machine! I look forward to reading his many notes.

Sean

GUILTY!