Will appreciate your pointing me to some examples of rating discrepancies between Robert Parker and the Wine Spectator, in which the Spectator gave the wines a significantly higher score.
Thanks.
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Here are some of the potential wines from our Studs or Duds tasting that had higher Spec scores:
RP WS WINE VINT
88 95 Justin Isoceles 1997 89 97 Merryvale Profile 1997 87 97 Whitehall Lane CS Reserve 1997 76 90 Ch. Brane Cantenac 1982 83 93 Ch. Figeac 1989 79 92 Ch. Lascombe 1995 89 99 Ch. Margaux 1989 89 100 Ch. Mouton 1988 88 99 Ch. Mouton 1989 88 95 Ch. Mouton 1990 79 97 Ch. Pichon Lalande 1990 89 97 Antinori Pian delle Vigne 1997 76 96 Banfi Brunello di Montalcino 1997 89 96 Fontanabianca Barbaresco Sori Burdin 1997 92 100 Voerzio Barolo Brunate 1997 74 88 Kiona Cabernet Reserve 1995Thanks, Dale.
If possible, I would also like to take a look at your list of w>Here are some of the potential wines from our Studs or Duds tasting
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Interesting list, Dale. It just proves, once again, that even the "professional" tasters will not always agree.
Dan-O
DaleW wrote:
And possibly how a simple mathematical approach to wine evaluation is fundamentally suspect? I would argue that such an approach ignores so many subjective factors and gives the impression of being objective when nobody can ever truly be objective about wine because mood and moment are so important - to say nothing of bottle to bottle/cask to cask variation, still less of those winemakers who deliberately set out to impress a particular taster or flatter known or perceived prejudices.
Sorry — just my effort with the longest, biggest, stirring spoon I can find.
Timothy Hartley
RP WS WINE VINT
88 69 BV George de Latour 2001 87 72 BV Tapestry 2001 95 69 Ch. Montelena 2001 93 77 Forman Cabernet 2001 93 79 Joseph Phelps Oalville Backus Vin. 2001 85 78 Matanzas Creek Cab Sonoma 2001 93+ 79 Phelps Backus Cabernet 2001 96 85 Verite La Muse 1999 95+ 75 Saxum Bone Rock Syrah 2002 92 82 Garretson Mourvedre The Graosta 2001 89 76 Garretson Roussanne The Limoid Cior 2001 91 79 Garretson Syrah The Craic 2002 90 77 Beckmen Syrah Purisima Mt. 2002 93 75 Beckmen Syrah Purisima Mt. Clone #1 2002 89 75 Byron IO 2000 93 81 Red Car Syrah The Table 2002 90 76 Ridge Lytton Springs Syrah 2001 88 77 Au Bon Climat Talley Rincon P.N. 2002 93 83 Ridge Lytton Springs Zin 2002 95 88 Pavie 1998 99 79 Chapoutier Ermitage L'Ermite 2000 100 65 Chapoutier Ermitage L'Ermite Blanc 2000 92 79 Delas Hermitage Marq. De la Tourette 1998 89 72 Paul Autard CdP 1998 95 89 Roger Sabon CNDP Cuvee Prestige 1998 93 82 Tardieu Laurent Cornas Cuvee Coteaux 1996 95 71 Einaudi Barolo 1989 Italy 93 79 Soldera Case Basse Riserva 1997 Italy 96 87 Fox Creek JSM 1998 98 89 Fox Creek Reserve Shiraz 1998 96-98 88 Kay's amery Shiraz Block #6 2001 96-95 79 Kay's Shiraz Hillside 2001 91 83 Bethel Heights Flat Block Reserve P.N. 2002 92 81 Bethel Heights Freedom Hill P.N. 2002 91 79 Bethel Heights Seven Springs P.N. 2002 93 83 Cristom Eileen Vin. P.N. 2002 89 77 Panther Creek Freedom Hill Vin. P.N. 2002 95 89 Januick Champoux Cabernet S. 2001I'd say even beyond mood, moment, bottle/cork variations, the problem with numbers and the implied "objectivity" is the reality that everyone's tastes differ to an extent.
That being said, I enjoyed the Studs or Duds tasting for all its limitations.
"DaleW" wrote in news:1121798927.358986.278650 @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
plus or minus ten points can be expected, but were they really drinking the same wine? the 65 bottle had to be flawed enough to merit a no scoreor at least the name and ap0pelation should merit a second bottle, A 35 point spread is ridiculous
This bottle to bottle variation. I heard a commentator on wines claim that every wine which had been stoppered with a cork is slightly different because of the natural variation of the corks which add something of their own to the taste. I suppose this is more detectable in wines that have stood longer in the bottle?
Continuing with this thought, I suppose each wooden cask that has stored wine would also have it's individual input into the taste? After the cask has aged, does the cask have less or greater effect on the taste?
(fairly new to wines)
It is perhaps no coincidence that the person who rated those wines for WS (Per-Henrik Mansson) no longer works for them. Many people felt that his reviews were the least defensible of all.
Mark Lipton
I completely agree. I particularly distrust the scoring systems which give so many points to appearance, so many to taste, so many to aroma, finish, etc.
The newer the oak, the greater the effect on the wine, hence the use by many of the more discerning growers of mixtures of new and older oak for differing proportions of the harvest and different periods according to vintage and desired effect. After the second year, certainly the third. ther eis very little oaking frm the wood although the exposure to some — but diminishing amounts of - oxygen through the wood also has some effect. The other factors which affect flavour are the size of the casks — obviously the smaller the cask, the greater the exposure to oak — the type of oak (or in some cases other wood) and the degree to which the barrels have been toasted. The other effect of the use of all new oak in France is to add about
1GBP to the cost of every bottle.Timothy Hartley
Not discounting the overall problem with trying to assign a numeric score to wine, which is pretty ridiculous anyway, according to the WS website and magazine, they employ several folks to score most wines and then aggregate these together for a final score.... which on one hand further clouds the value of the score but on the other hand at least does give some weight to different opinions unlike Parker or Tanzer whose scores are generally just their own and hence more prone to being biased.
I think it is more valuable to have a single person rate it. If someone scores it 100 and someone scores it 80 then a 90 doesn't really tell the story, which is that someone loved it and someone didn't care for it.
Dimitri
I think so too, but for a somewhat different reason. If you read the ratings of someone for a while, you get to know something about how closely his tastes match yours. If you can find someone whose tastes are similar to yours, his ratings can be very valuable. You can't do that with ratings that are averages.
I was thinking this same thing. I think this reason is very similar to my argument. If you know you have the same tastes as the 80 guy then you might not like it. If you have the same tastes as the 100 guy then you will probably love it. By rating it an average of 90 you don't really tell the story that one of the critics felt it was the best wine in the world. Is a wine that rates a 90 with scores of 80/100 really the same as a wine that rates a 90 with scores of 88/92? Not if you're the guy who gave it 100 points. This is where your reason ties into mine. People have different palates and preferences. It's better that this is reflected in their scores. If you can find someone whose opinion you trust so much the better.
FWIW, I find both Parker and Tanzer to be pretty reliable for the most part. If Parker gives something a high score it doesn't usually (to my palate) suck. The WS and WE scores are fairly meaningless to me.
Dimitri
Even with the story well told in words it needs to be remembered that it is told from a subjective viewpoint, numbers obscure that basic fact by purporting to be objective. Dimitri‘s point is exactly why numerical scores are useless — the story needs to be told and words are needed for that. An ape knows how many fingers it has; humans can tell you what they look like and what you can do with them — and how many to wave at some so called experts. Words, properly used, convey comsiderably more than numbers about wine; just as they do about almost every aspect of life outside pure mathematics and phsyics. What is needed is wide reading, wider tasting and a lot of experience, so that people make their own minds up, not the following of dubious arithmetical assessments which have logarithmic effects on price. Fortunately, since my tastes are rather different from Parker‘s, the price effect is beneficial for me but not, I think, for wine growing generally trends in which get skewed by the silly prices paid for some wines which are objectively often no ”better• than some others. Worse still some growers seem to my mind to get tempted by the illogically enahnced prices to make over extracted, and consequently unsubtle, wines, for early showing, with no hope of proper development in later life — a bit like pushing a girl‘s voice in her teens and killing all promise of a mature one later.
Timothy Hartley
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