Penfold's Shiraz-Cab

"Dee Dee" wrote .....

Take a look at this Penfolds site to get a handle on their (complex at times) range of wines - you will see where Koonunga lies against the Bin range of wines.

I must say that when I am faced with two different vintages on a shell, I usually purchase one of each - and form my own opinion which is to my taste.

This is an excellent way of seeing for oneself the subtle differences which the differing growing seasons bring to a wine.

Thanks so much. Great site; I like it.

I can't figure out what the Bin refers to; I know that all wines can be put into bins; but it just doesn't fit into my head yet what it means. Is this a designator that many wines put on their wines, or does it just apply to Australian wines, or specifically to Penfolds'?

Thanks.

"Dee Dee" wrote .......

The use of the word Bin is common within (but not exclusive to) the Australian industry.

Originally, a bin was a storage area in a wine cellar. Wines generally were allocated the same bin with each successive vintage.

Over time the Bin number also became associated with the wine, for example; a Shiraz stored in Bin 707, and a Chardonnay in Bin 65, became brand names depicting a style of wine.

It is safe to say that, nowadays, the Bin Number is nothing to do with the origin of the grapes or where the wine has been stored - it's just another name used by marketers; and as you rightly note, Penfolds, Wyndham and Lindemans particularly, used Bin numbers.

Why, even Penfolds Grange is also known as Bin 95 !

C'est moi, c'est moi, I'm forced to admit. 'Tis I, I humbly reply. ;-)

As you've probably read by now, the Koonunga series from Penfolds lies a rung down from the Bin-labeled wines. I don't have enough experience with them to provide any intelligent comment.

Keep in mind that the Bin 389 (in my experience) is a wine for aging. It starts off life rather austere, so it may not be the best choice for near-term drinking. However, regarding your question: 2005 is accounted the superior year in S. Australia by Robert Parker. Whether your tastes conform to his own is a separate question. BTW, his Vintage Chart is free for the asking:

Since I offer this up, though, I must also offer the caveat that vintage charts are far from Gospel truth. At best, they're gross generalizations. At worst, they attempt to cram stylistic differences into some sort of numerical ranking.

As a fer instance: I think that '88 in Bordeaux is a year far more to my liking than '90. Also, I feel that 2001 in the S. Rhone produced wines more to my liking than either '98 or 2000 did. Yet, you'll see that in all of those cases, Mr. Parker's vintage chart would tell you otherwise. Why is that? I prefer wines more acidic than does Mr. Parker and I also like the fruit to be ripe but not overripe. None of this, of course, is reflected in the numbers shown in his chart. Caveat lector.

Good luck, Dee! Mark Lipton

price

Regardless, if you open a bottle of this stuff, toss us some notes. Here in southern China, basically the only AU brand that's acceptable here is Penfolds. I thought about trying one of these after I hit the lottery...that is, so I can afford the ridiculous mark-up designed for the Chinese wine market.

Yes indeed. And of course to reduce an entire vintage to gradations of single percentage points is absurd (with all due respect to RP).

I have previously been bemused to note that Loire reds don't even get a place on this list. How can that be? Must be the same excellence year in and year out! ;)

Also he tends to be rather extremist in his views... e.g. '02 in the Southern Rhone he gives a 58C, which would lead one to think these wines should be avoided at all costs. In fact there's plenty of good stuff there for those willing to look (or who already know where to look!)

I was just about to post "These are classic, super-ripe, powerful wines possessing low acidity and gorgeous black current fruit intermixed with floral and spice notes. They are very flavorful, but their opulence of fruit and magnificent concentration largely obscure some high tannin levels. Such wines can be drunk young (because of their stunning purity and texture) but they will age for 20 or 30 years, too."

Well.

A couple of points, I wonder if folks would care to express opinions.

1. Will these low acid wines really get better during 30 years? (That's why I age my wine, if it's not getting better I'd rather drink it now.)
2. Aren't "super-ripe" wines less likely to age well?
3. Is it legitimate to qualify an entire vintage according to a flavor such as "black current fruit?"
4. Is it misleading to call this an "early maturing" vintage, when lacking sufficient acidity it is likely the tannins will dominate as the fruit fades over a few years?

I really do have a lot of respect for RP, but some over some of these reports wafts a faint haze of hyperbole... :)

-E

First of all, many, many thanks Mark and Emery and St. Helier for your thoughtful replies.

Mydnight, perhaps I've asked this before and you've answered and I've forgotten, but I don't think so. What the H--- are you doing in China? (Haven't I seen your postings about tea, food, etc. on another site(s)?)

I'd like to say that I'll exchange the Penfolds 'notes' for the answer to your location, but I can't in good conscience do that.

I have a fondness in my heart for China, having been there only once; but this is slowing waning with all the publicity lately.

Don't be so mysterious, Mydnight. Dee Dee

I am in Guangdong province, Dongguan city, Dongcheng district. If you are a frequenter of RFDT (tea), you more than likely have seen my posts and as of late they have been mainly warning people against drinking too much "famous" tea. I have lived in China for a little over 3 years.

Don't have a fondness for China anymore unless you are talking about the inner, nicer provinces. I'm down here with the scum in Guangdong. Here for business...that's all. Chinese fluency pretty much takes away any mysterious aspect of China and replaces it basically with the fact that there isn't much culturally going on where I am; hasn't been for about 50 years.

Anyway, the only recognizable name in wine that I can see here is Penfolds; the rest are supermarket grade rung stock wines with a 50 percent, sometimes more, mark-up on its being "foreign". Foreign dirt is more expensive than domestic.

Sorry, I'm negative.

Yes, I have seen your tea posts; and frankly took them very much to heart. I threw out all of the Chinese tea. DH stopped drinking tea completely (we had stopped drinking coffee [at home] several months before.) The only reason I'm drinking tea now just a few days before that, I found some Darjeeling (Tumsong Estate) tea that has a non- biting mild taste. I bought 8 boxes of 100 packs (indivdual tea bags completely vacuumed sealed). I hope it is not contaminated.

No problem with being negative; no apologies needed. Dee

Chinese greens from the deep countryside, teas that you could never get from "the market" (if you dare call it that), are quite good for you. Cuts fat; reduces risk of cancer; all that. The market stuff...LongJing, TieGuanYin...you think wine additives are bad? Tea additives are like a million times better than freon or cooling fluid.

Taiwan still has clean tea. Insist your vendor peddles you stuff from Taiwan.

I guess negativism is realism.

Sorry, we drank paint thinner, I mean Chinese rice wine, tonight. I meant to say "a million times worse". The tea additives are a million times worse than wine additives.

Thanks again, Mark. Today I bought Penfolds Bin 389 Cabernet Shiraz