Tokay - tocai - wine history?

Nov 25, 2004 20 Replies

Hello; Somebody of a calendar chewing persuasion might be able to sig into this ... For a long time, Pinot gris was, in Alsace, called 'tokay', or 'tokay d´Alsace'. A charming but unconvincing story about the imperial steward, Laszar Schwendi, bringing the grape variety from the Tokaji region in Hungary (having first invaded and sacked the city in question) is not very well founded historically (except for Schwendi being a landowner in Alsace, and doing splendid work in the invading and sacking business for the Emperor). I have noticed that there are at least two wine varieties called tocai in Italy - tocai rosso, which is the same as grenache, and tocai friulano, which is sauvignonasse.



I have tried to find if there is any background to these two names, rather similar to tokay in my never very humble opinion. (I am at least, fairly certain Laszar Schwendi had nothing to do with Noerthern Itlay?)



Does anybody know anything about the etymological background to these two names of grape varieties?



Cheers



Nils Gustaf


"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" ha scritto nel messaggio news:V3fpd.9468$ snipped-for-privacy@newsb.telia.net...

Under a merely historical point of view, there are some documents:

"the baroness Aurora Formentini (born in Gorizia on 26.10.1609 from Carl Formentini and Anna Marie von Rohrbach), died in 1653 to Nemet-Ujvar, County of Vas, got married (2 February the 1632) with the Hungarian count Adam Batthyany and took in dowry "vitti 300 di Toccai" (300 plants of tocai), that the peasants of her retinue (Slovenian, as it turns out from the books of the Formentini family) transplanted in Hungary. This is also the origin of the name of the grape Furmint, in honour of the new princess, and demonstrates that the name Tocai existed far before the Tokaji one. Nonetheless maybe it is fair that IF only one tocai (or tokay or tokaji) must exist, it is the better one.

As far as the origin of the name tocai, no sure and consistent etymology results to me.

Luk

Ciò che ha detto Luk ( snipped-for-privacy@RUMENTAlibero.it) è così interessante, che devo dire la mia:

Just two hypothesis:

1-Tu-Kay = from here (referred to the grape) in Slovenian dialect 2- Tocai = "small hill" in Hungarian Consider that Friuli was a part of the Austro-Hungarian empire up to 19th century Luk

With reference to your previous article comment. Tokaj in Hungary existed long before the 15th century, the aszu technique was invented by Szepsy in around 1650 so to say tocai existed "long" beforehand is a little exaggerated.

I just checked up on this and tocai means chop or dewlap in Hungarian, I can find no reference to hill or any dimnutive of it, being translated by "tocai". Where did you find this suggestion?

Was it? I thought the Austro Hungarian empire ended near Trieste!

All the best Ian hoare

Hmm. As always in Autrian history, it's rather complicated. Essentially, Friuli was part of the Patriarchy of Aquilea to become part of the Republic of Venice (15/16th century) where it remained until Napoleonic times when it was part of the Kingdom of Italy. After the Congress of Vienna, the Lombardo-Venetian Kingdom was established as part of the Austrian Empire. Lombardy came to Italy in 1859, Venetia in 1866.

The easternmost part of Friuli however, including Görz/Gorizia and possibly the best part (wine-wise spoken), the Collio Goriziano (goriska brda in Slovenian), has been Austrian (Görz County) for ages.

M.

"john shaw" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@toshiba-user.sonic.net...

I remember a Slovenian wine producer posting here a few months back - perhaps he would have comments concerning the use of the phrase tocai (tukay) in Slovenia? I tried to find their site, but was lost in some sort of Slovenian all inclusive portal ... Of course I might over simplify in assuming that two similar sounding names for wine varietals may be relAted. Still, the truth[1] is out there ...

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

[1] For a given value for "truth" /q. Terry Pratchett

"john shaw" ha scritto nel messaggio news: snipped-for-privacy@toshiba-user.sonic.net...

I referred to the name "tocai" (as asked), not to the Szepsy wine. Is there a prvious document where the name Tokaj is mentioned?

As far as the origin of the name:

formatting link

Search for Tocai in the link. Unfortunately in italian.

Luk

I don't see any native Hungarians responding. Perhaps they are laughing. Hopefully some might respond and offer their truth about "THE WINE OF KINGS -- THE KING OF WINES". I've tasted Tokaji wine that was bottled in 1956 recently and it was truly wonderful. Anyone have any experience with Tojaki Essence? I'd like to hear about it. Marie Palotas

"Marie Palotas" ha scritto nel messaggio news: snipped-for-privacy@storefull-3135.bay.webtv.net...

Why should they laugh? Everybody here is convinced that tokaij is one of the best wine of the world. But the topic asked by Gustaf is different.

Luk

I was assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that you were saying that tocai (italian name for the grape) existed before "tokaj" the name of a town (on a little hill) in NE Hungary. I was doubting this, as all the evidence I've seen is that the grape (pinot gris aka pinot grigio aka szurkebarat) was named tocai (etc) in an attempt tp persuade people that that it made the "King of wines and wine of kings".

Atb

Ian

You can say that again!

Thanks for the clarification. What's your take on the derivation of tocai then?

All the best

ian

One reason I responded, is that I'm half hungarian, and that although I don't speak the language - other than being able to order a meal there (with appropriate wines), at least I have SOME small vocabulary - enough to look up tocai in an online dictionary, as i didn't bring my anglo-hungarian dictionary with me to California on holiday. (Grin - it never occurred to me that I'd need it).

Yup, in 2000 I was lucky enough to taste two single vineyard tokaji eszencia still undergoing fermentation at the opening of the Kiralyudvar estate. Astonishing wine. It didn't (at >650g/l of sugar) pour from the wine thief, as much as ooze. But it had such a huge level of acidity that it didn't taste in any way syrupy.

Marie Palotas

From your family name, could I infer that you're of hungarian origin too?

all the best,

Ian

Well, what I did was to put tokai tocai tokay etc into an online translation service, to see if I could find any variant meaning anything like a hillock. I then back translated hill, small hill, hillock and failed to get tocai.

However, it is perfectly true that Tokaj IS built on a hillock at the SE corner of the mountain range, upon whose sides all the best vineyards are to be found (Not having my references, I don't have access to its name, "hegyalia"? perhaps).

Thanks. Though of course this doesn't really get us any further forward as to any alternative derivation of the name of the italian grape variety. I was merely hoping to correct what might have been incorrectly inferred from Luk's intervention.

All the best Ian

"john shaw" ha scritto nel messaggio news:opsh9gnwwj4tgne9@toshiba-user...

Hi Ian

I do not want to go into a discussion about "what is better than".

I just wrote that the name of a grape called Tocai existed in Friuli (not Italy at that time) before the name (and the existence, as you say "..the aszu technique was invented by Szepsy in around 1650..") of the wine Tokaij, and that the grape of this last (Furmint) was given in honour of the baroness Aurora Formentini from Gorizia.

As far as the Hungarian origin of the tocai etymon, did you check also the hungarian dialects? They can be much different than the actual language.

Luk

Ciò che ha detto Nils Gustaf Lindgren ( snipped-for-privacy@NOTAVALIDADRESS.se) è così interessante, che devo dire la mia:

Luk (or Luca) is just enaugh!! :-) Luk

Sorry Ian, no idea. Probably the same thing happened to tocai friulano as it happened to welschriesling/olaszrizling: The name of a better know variety/place was coined to a local variety sometimes in the dark past.

M.

First I am not of Hungarian background and can not read Hungarian. However I have a small book that is an English transalation of a Hungarian one - it likely is out of print. The English translation is King of Wines-Wine of Kings; The Little Book of Tokaji Wines by Istvan Lazar. The Hungarian original published in 1987 is Borok kiralya - kiralyok bora. Kis konyv a tokaji borrol. Corvina Kiado, 1987. In addition to the main text by Istvan Lazar, there are a few recipies using Tokaji wine by Emil Turos at the end of the book. The booklet was printed in Hungary, 1987, by Egyetemi Nyomda, Budapest.

" Around the end of the 12th century, the wine-growers living in what was then Lotharingia (Lorraine, now forming part of north-eastern France) were passing through difficult times: improved transportation had allowed the higher quality Mediterranean wines to reach Lotharingia, and so their own lighter somewhat sour-tasting wines lost ther popularity.

This was also the time when industrious peasants from abroad were invited to settle in the territories of the Hungarian kingdom. And the expertise of these Walloon viniculturalists as well as those who arrived from an area around Venice to this region was very marked. Yet by no means were they the earlist wine-growers here. On the contrary, they were persuaded to settle in the Tokaj region to add their talents to the established viniculture.

The origins of grape cultivation by man in the Tokaj-Hegyalja region has not been clearly ascertained by arechelogical findings. However, we can be certain that at the time when Hungarian Transdanubia was still the Roman province of Pannonia, grapes were cultivated not only in the vicinity of Lake Balaton and the present capital. but also in parts of what was then called Barbaricum. It is probable that the Dacians and Celtic groups had cultivated grapes here earlier. According to Anonymus, the Hungarian chronicler who lived at the turn of the 12th century, Prince Arpad and his Magyar tribesmen , when they arrived around the spring of A.D. 895, celebrated for many days on the mountain of Tarcal. This is, in fact, a mountain in the Tokaj region, They praised their good luck in having found such a wonderful place, for it was rich in grass, fish, venison and wine."

"Why was their need for Walloon and Italian expertise? The Italians had brought with them several varieties of grapes that have subsequently become well established in this area. The Walloons, on the other hand, had become masters of winemaking in Lotharingia, in a climate that was unsuitable for grape cultvation. The weaker the quality of the grape, the more difficult it is to produce a fine-bodied drink during fermentation, drawing off, handling, and aging in the cellar. Thus the Walloons contributed valuable and useful knowledge partially in the area of cultivation, but also in the matter of cellar procedures that follow the harvesting of grapes. And they might have been the ones who introduced the use of wooden casks."

There is much more including how occupation by the Turks made the Tokaji region much more important as it was not invaded.

All I can do is give a few quotes, because I do not have the background to evaluate them. Lazar does seem to know what he is talking about.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net from my email address. Then add snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com . I do not check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

Sorry, no. Pinot grigio is a distinct grape, definitely part of the pinot family, while tocai is sauvignonasse.

M.

"Hegyalja" is "hilly land", "hegy" is "hill", and the name of the montain is simply "tokaji hegy": hill of Tokaj.

M.

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