: Lately, I note that most accept that I am laughing (crying) with and not : *at* my American friends - over what Mr. Hoare correctly describes as an : emotive lack of common sense.
Who said common sense goes together with American laws?
:> I feel that anyone living in the USA who reads this NG should :> do the same. The logic is entirely clear, IMO. If you CAN'T take :> leftovers home, then the temptation MUST be to "just finish it off" :> and thus go over the limit.
How true, and how this defeats the original intent of no driving and drinking. Being small and enlightened definately has it's perks!
I tread very lightly on this subject. I respect most everybody who posts on this NG and trust that virtually everybody here has the common sense, decency and respect for others that is necessary to decide when enough is enough or that a glass of wine or two or a couple of beers at the beach should be a normal everyday event. America is a vast country with a huge diverse population that given an inch will take a mile in many cases. Unfortuantly there are far too many abusers to pass a law that can fairly cover those who ignore or abuse the laws which means that we all suffer for the lowest common denominator. Bi!!
I think the Europeans did in fact have a problem. The Temperance Movement started in 1808 and was just as strong in Ireland, Denmark and Sweden as in the US. A movement called the Women's Christian Temperance Union (of which my grandmother was a pillar) was founded around 1887 in the US and that is what made the US different. All the previous temperance groups had been directly associated with churches but WCTU gave everyone a chance to participate (even thought it was almost all female members) One of the key events that helped trigger it was a French vet returning home in 1918 and killing his family while drunk on anisette (or however the triply distilled liquor with worm wood is spelled) and the community immediately settled on the booze as causing his madness. So it was outlawed and within weeks there was a nationwide prohibition movement in France, England, Denmark and Sweden. I believe that I remember from a book "The Origins of Prohibition" by Ashbury or Ashcroft that the French version lasted 21 days while Denmark and Sweden got up to at least a year. I don't remember England at all. There was a challenge to the US prohibition by either the French wine/liquor exporters or someone of the kind that argued that the terms of the Treaty gave France the right to export liquor to the territory that they had sold to the US in
1803 (it was at that time that it was decided that the US Constitution overrode all international treaties) The problem in the US is of course what the majority had to give up to get the repeal amendment passed. States rights still exist here. This is all from the "Way Way Way Back Machine".
To help someone so far away and upside down try to understand why we have so many archaic laws regarding alcohol. The bottom line of our Civil War that ended in 1865 was whether or not the United States was going to be a nation or a collection of states. The Southern States insisted on States Rights and the right to secede was one of them. When the war was over, there was almost a unanimous opinion that we were a union. In 1933 when we tried to repeal the 18th amendment or prohibition, States Rights once again came to the forefront. Many concessions had to be made to get various states to pass the repeal act. There are many fundamentals in our Constitution such as Interstate Commerce where no state can make a law that interferes with it. But interstate transportation of liquor is a state right to manage. We took ten steps backward toward anarchy in 1933. The states pass these archaic laws because they can. I guess we are not currently a nation.
The other state you couldn't remember was Mississippi. I know because I grew up there when it was dry although beer was legal on a county option basis. Hard liquor was illegal and I don't know that anybody knew what wine was except for a few Episcopalians. But the state had a tax on what hard liquor was sold there, albeit illegally. Don't ask me how it was collected. The standing joke was that the thing that kept the state dry was a coalition between the bootleggers and the Baptist preachers, each of which had their own (very different) reasons for keeping things as they were. If you had gone to the Gulf Coast of Mississippi at that time, you would not have believed that hard liquor was illegal. As you mentioned, the state went wet a few years after Oklahoma, but I was long gone from there by then.
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][] ] there's often half a bottle left, and at restaurant prices, I _really_ don't ] want to leave it. So I ask for a cork and out of politeness ask if I can ] take it home. I don't know what others here do, Emery? Mike? ] []
Hi Ian,
My impression is that the "doggie bag" is embarassing to the French generally. Just MHO of course.
I haven't seen wine taken from a restaurant often, but I have seen it. Obviously in major cities (with mass transport) it is less of an issue...
le/on Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:40:07 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
Thanks. If there's a subject (well, old readers will know that there are quite a few) which makes me froth at the mouth, it is the vile combination of ignorant bigotry and arrogance which characterises religious fundamentalism. I've NO particular religion in my sights in saying this, mainly because I've seen it in almost all major world religions. I allow myself to mention it here, because it affects what _I_ will be able to do when I come to visit my friends in the USA.
As you (and most here) know, we're planning to visit. What I'd LOVE to be able to do is to bring over a few bottles, and share them with the friends we'll be meeting along the way. I've written passionately about Tokaj for example, or Monbazillac,etc. I _know_ these wines aren't available in the States. What better way of sharing with the afw friends I've made, than by tasting a friendly bottle together. And I can't. GRRRR.
le/on Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:22:39 +0100, tu disais/you said:-
I've never seen it on the food front, nor on carafe wines, and I'd not ask for or expect it for either of these. But if I've bought the bottle ... But it has to be said that most of the time I'm going to restaurants round here, where I'm pretty well known, and where (due to running a B&B) I suppose I can have some sort of effect on their turn over. So I doubt if any of these people are going to go po-faced if I ask to bring a half bottle home! What they think or say when I've gone, I don't know.
le/on Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:39:43 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
There certainly was a very grave problem over public drunkenness in several countries, which was dealt with differently in different places.
I don't _know_ of any European country which banned _all_ alcoholic drink. Several churches in the UK _tried_ to ban alcohol, and some still are teetotal -for their members.
Restrictions - some severe - have been in place in several Nordic countries, and I expect Nils and Anders could tell us more, but I don't think any of them had a global ban.
I think you're probably thinking of absinthe. While it's true that was banned, and it is also true that France has taken increasingly drastic steps to cut back on alcoholism, there's never been the faintest suggestion of a total ban in recent years.
Good heavens. 21 days. I imagine the government was brought down!!
When I lived in far north Dallas (in the city, but not the county, of Dallas) in 1980-1982 there was a local option law in effect with three variants.
1) Totally dry.
2) On premise to club members only. Restaurants sold club memberships for a few dollars and up.
3) On premise (7 days, I was never in a bar only setting, they all had substantial menus) and off premise (6 days). The off premise stores were similar to the ones in New York except that they carried some snacks and bar accessories.
Another blue law was that no apparel could be sold on Sundays. It was really strange to go into a Farmer Jack's supermarket on Sunday, and see the aisles with underwear, flip flops, and the like roped off. (BTW, Farmer Jack's off Lovers Lane--no kidding--was a hot pick up spot after 2AM.)
Snip
Now back to 1964, I was in the Navy and was visiting Savannah, GA. We went to a nice restaurant for Sunday evening dinner.
Waitress: Would you like a cocktail before dinner?
Me: No, thanks. (I was a lot younger then, but still old enough.)
Later I give my dinner order and ask for a beer. (I said I was a lot younger.)
: As you (and most here) know, we're planning to visit. What I'd LOVE to be : able to do is to bring over a few bottles, and share them with the friends : we'll be meeting along the way. I've written passionately about Tokaj for : example, or Monbazillac,etc. I _know_ these wines aren't available in the : States. What better way of sharing with the afw friends I've made, than by : tasting a friendly bottle together. And I can't. GRRRR.
Ian, who says you *can't* I'm sure there's SOMEwhere you could plop one of those small, sweet bottles and have it not be noticed!
Norway had prohibition of liquor and fortified wine from 1917 to 1927, a bonanza to sailors and fishermen who smuggled hundreds of thousands of litres and landed them in the dark of the night anywhere along the coast, and also to doctors who wrote perfectly legal presciptions for alcohol as a cure for any conceivable ill (flu, fevers, diabetes or menstruation...) a total of 650.000 litres of hard liquor on "blue prescriptions" i.e. partially paid for by the state(!!) in 1921 (in a country of 4 million people!). :-) Anders
] Salut/Hi Emery Davis, ] ] le/on Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:22:39 +0100, tu disais/you said:- ] ] >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:02:19 +0100, Ian Hoare said: ] ] >Hi Ian, ] >
] >My impression is that the "doggie bag" is embarassing to the French generally. ] >Just MHO of course. ] ] I've never seen it on the food front, nor on carafe wines, and I'd not ask
On the food front, I've seen a separate plate supplied for the doggie under the table, more than once! (Shades of Pommes Frites in the latest Pamplemousse saga... although even he turned up his nose at the Tripes a la mode de Caen!)
] for or expect it for either of these. But if I've bought the bottle ... But ] it has to be said that most of the time I'm going to restaurants round here, ] where I'm pretty well known, and where (due to running a B&B) I suppose I ] can have some sort of effect on their turn over. So I doubt if any of these ] people are going to go po-faced if I ask to bring a half bottle home! What ] they think or say when I've gone, I don't know. ]
I wouldn't worry about it personally. My observation is just the usual half hearted attempt to understand my "compatriots," for what it's worth. In these parts, where people I've known for 10 years still refer to me as "l'americain," I think I'd disappoint if I didn't exhibit the occasional bit of eccentric behavior. I assume you're in a similar barque, so to speak. Anyway I try to assume the positive until contrary proof appears.
Back onT: just tried to find the wine to match rabbit with turnips and calvados; attempted a '98 Rasteau (La Soumade Confiance) in the hope of standing up to it, with weak results: it wilted in front of its adversary. Any ideas for what I might have tried? "Really big" was a proverbial spam advertizement...
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