Alternative Technique To Topping Off Wine - Crazy Product Idea!?!

I like the idea. I may be hard to add the balls to the fermenter if the fill hole is small.

Actually, I had wondered the same thought when looking at the big commercial vat -- why couldn't they have inflatable bladders to keep the wine at the proper level?

Perhaps one reason for topping up has been the way wine is taxed, by capacity, so it makes sense to jam as much in as possible. Of course, home winemakers don't have that concern so adding space-fillers would work if you don't have any spare juice to top it off.

Bob Devine

I'd feel much more comfortable adding a glass product to wine for any length of time than plastic. Many people on this NG have mentioned using glass marbles to make up volume in a container. I have done this myself in a pinch but no longer do it. First, the cost of marbles may be more than the cost of buying extra grapes or juice to have around as extra for topping up. Secondly, I've found it increases my losses in subsequent rackings. Wine gets trapped between the marbles yet sediment collects on the top layer. Finally, it's additional work to get the marbles out and cleaned up.

For me, it's much easier to get some of last year's wine (or a similar commercial wine) in an emergency but, honestly, it's easiest to make extra 'top-up' wine.

RD

Not irrational at all - but not completely original (you might want to think twice before spending the $ to patent anything!)

Plastic is less than the ideal material. glass is more dense, and cleaner. Many on this forum and elsehwere have suggested, and use, sanitized glass marbles to do just what you are proposing.

A thought for you; come up with a cheap reliable source of glass marbles in varying sizes. Develop a way of putting them into glass carboys without risking cracking the carboy. Market the glass marbles, in a variety of sizes, in bagged lots, through the home winemaking stores.

If it works, you can pay me off with a bottle of Ornellaia!

Just use marbles....

the best option of course is to rack into a smaller container so there is no headspace....then if you have to top up you top up you split some off into a second container and top up in the smallest container possible (4 liter jug, 1.5 L magnum, .5 liter bottle...etc...).

Charles E wrote:

Like you, I was originally concerned about the plastic adding off-flavors or aromas but then I realized most open-top fermentations use non-food grade plastic containers. The fermentation conditions in the primary fermentation vessel are more caustic to the plastic (i.e. elevated temp, turbidity, higher acidity, etc) that the secondary fermentation vessel. I don't think you'd want to use fillers (glass or plastic) for long-term ageing but seems like secondary fermentation is when you usually need the extra volume in the closed-top fermentation vessel.

That's a very interesting point on the wine being trapped between the sediment layer and carboy base when using marbles. I would have never even considered that. That is a bummer...

Thanks for your input!

I usually have the extra juice. In my mind, it's just seems more convenient to top off with a solid volume than liquid because you likely either waste the extra liquid or need to find progressively smaller containers to keep the left over juice. Not to mention cleaning old airlocks and bottles whenever topping off. For me that's always been a pain in the keester...

I just filed a preliminary patent app which only costs $75 and buys you some time to investigate market potential under patent pending status. I formal patent would have to be submitted after 12 months if the product proves to be feasible.

Anyway, good idea on the varying size glass marbles. Keeping them from cracking the carboy is the trick. I was basically trying to do the same thing with plastic balls. When you say "less than ideal", realize that the plastic only has to be slightly more dense than water to sink. Additional density only hastens the descent to the bottom of the tank. Plastic is of course far more impact resistant than glass and costs less. As far as cleanliness goes, I believe an FDA approved plastic is virtually impervious to the agents in wine and the surface can be polished smooth in the tool just like glass. If you're thinking the plastic might contribute off odors or flavors, that's a major concern of mine too. However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.

Thanks for your post. I appreciate your time and advice.

Agreed. I'm just lazy and thought the plastic balls would save some time and effort...

On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote: [snipped]

Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag for the health of the consumers of the wine.

Cheers, Ken

ya can only hope they were NEW plastic trash-cans. :*)

I have made many a peach brandy just in NEW plastic trash-cans, scrubbed and sprayed down with "no rinse". Nothing ever came of it, but good brandy.

For wine making, I've stayed with primaries from wine kits and wine stores, guess I'm cautious in my old age. :*)

DAve

Lum Eisenman wrote:

"Food grade" just means that there should be a minimal amount of plasticizers and unreacted momomers left after polymerization. that stuff is not benign.....but at the levels found in plastic is it not acutely toxic either. One concern is that those chemicals are often carcinogenic, and there are often chronic effects associated with them.

While a trash can you have used 40 times already should not be a great concern, there could be some chemical release the first few times you use it.......and when talking about things that you use a lot of like "tupperware" containers you definately want them to be made of food grade plastic.

Dave Allis> ya can only hope they were NEW plastic trash-cans. :*)

wow. dang. good to know. thanks, Droopy!

DAve

Dro> "Food grade" just means that there should be a minimal amount of

My father-in-law and his cronies make about 250 gallons of the exact same wine each year. Their primary fermenters are second-hand olive oil barrels, which are food grade. These cost them a bit more than a new plastic trash can would have, but not by a huge margin. This is in NJ rather than CA, but even these very 'old school' gentlemen have a healthy desire to keep their product safe for the consumers. After all, the consumers are primarily themselves and their families! Lum, I bow to your greater experience, as my experience is limited to my father-in-law's group and my own vastly lower volume production plus that of several of my friends. We all use only food grade fermenters, but this sample size is very small. I would be very interested to see the results of an informal poll of amateur wine makers over a much larger sample size, to see what the trend is vis-a-vis food grade or non-food grade fermenters.

Cheers, Ken

MOST #2 HDPE plastic containers are food grade. I've read that the dye used in the black ones make them non-food grade. To make sure you can check with the manufacturer which is usually listed on the bottom of the container (although not always easy to track down). I checked with Rubbermaid on the grey Brute trash cans before I bought one and they told me they were made from food grade plastic.