Fermenting on oak chips

JF:

If you DAGS of the archives you might find the answer to your post.

Recently I did a bit of reading on oaking. A couple of this NG's regualr folks recommend oaking at primary fermentation and beyond for better intergration of the oak. I did not see any side by side testing though, as you are looking for.

Maybe you could try that and let us know next year.

Steve noobie Oregon

Spud,

To be honest with you, I have tasted 2 different wines with one wine fermented on the oak then allowed to sit on more oak after primary and another where the oak was added after primary. After 1 year in the carboys, I can't tell the difference but I'm not a skilled taster.

Bob

Hey Bob:

Yeah, there's probably a lot of other variables that have a bigger impact on flavor than using chips during ferment or after.

Bob you have any experience or witnessed anyone growing Leon Milllot?

Steve noobie Oregon

I didn't reply because I felt the same way as Bob, I have done it both ways and really did not notice a difference. We use a LOT of oak, about 35g/gallon on reds.

I made Leon Millot once and did not care for it but I got it from NY; your growing patterns may be completely different. We drank it; it was good, I just feel Chancellor makes a better hybrid over here.

Joe

Steve,

No I don't. I have had wines that had some Leon Millot in them and they seemed to taste like a hybrid to me. Personally, I'm not that impressed with the red hybrids I've tasted except for Chambourcin and Landot Noir. Whites are a different story. I live in NY and I think the whites are far superior. This is all my personal opinion of course. I think growing reds in upstate NY is like trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. Problem is , everyone is a red drinker especially the sweet ones ;). Concord might be the Finger Lakes best seller! How's your viticulture experience going???? Is it a good one???

Bob

Hi Bob:

Thanks, appreciate the opine. Some vines are going. Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris went in during spring. Getting ready to put up end posts for the rest of the rows, and stake planting spots. Think I'll go 6x6 since it's a hillside and all hand work.

Just asking about Leon Millot as it's early. Kind of like to spread the harvest time work load out if possible.

Take Care Steve noobie Oreg>Steve,

spud wrote "Just asking about Leon Millot as it's early. Kind of like to spread the harvest time work load out if possible. Steve noobie, Oregon"

Steve - I used to grow Leon Millot. The vines are very hardy and produce lots of small clusters of little grapes. I harvested them anywhere from July 24th to August 9th here in Kansas. This is at least a month before any other grapes were ripe. I found this to be a problem...hard to spray the whole vineyard when you have to be careful not to spray the L.M. Also, since the L.M. started to change color early I had to put up bird netting sooner than I needed to for the other grapes.

But, in the end I would have put up with all of the above if the wine was really good. IMO the L.M. I made was only a fair wine. I ended up grafting Vignoles on the L.M. roots. In Oregon I would think you could grow about any vinifera but if you want to plant a hybrid I favor Chambourcin and New York 73 and maybe even Baco Noir. I make some nice blends of these wines.

If you want to taste some excellent Baco Noir wine try a bottle of from Oregon winery Chateau Lorane. They also make a Foch which is the cousin of Leon Millot. This could give you an idea of what to expect from these grapes in your part of the world.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Bill:

Thanks for the tips. I appreciate it, sure makes a lot of sense.

You're right about growing pretty much any variety, the local commercial vineyards grow Cab, Chard, Merlot, Syrah, Sav Blanc, Pinot Noir, etc. I intend to grow enough of these to make 5 gallon batches.

Just thinking of ways to push the processing work load forward. I'll hunt down a bottle of Leon Millot to try before I commit any to the vineyard.

Thanks

Steve noobie Oregon

That's the way it was here in California a couple or three decades ago. Since then, our viticulturists have come to realize that different varietals produce better fruit in different areas. Nowadays there's little Cabernet or Zin planted in the South Central Coast because it just doesn't do as well there as Chardonnay or Pinot Noir, which likes the cooler climate better. Same thing in Napa, except in reverse. Cabernet is good there, but Pinot Noir isn't because it's too warm.

Tom S

Hi Tom:

Yup, conversations with an owner of a newer vineyard here in indicate we're too warm for exquisite Pinot Noir. Evidently it becomes ripe too early in the season and can give up a 'jammy' quality some years? While north in the Willamette Valley Pinot Nior can hang to perfection untill the October rains threaten. While up there they don't have the heat or season for Cab., Syrah or Merlot.

Fortunately noobie home grape growers are not constrained by such sillyness, isn't ignorance bliss! Besides, having 5 gallons each of

10 wines, even if some is less than exquisite ($2 Steve's Pinot Noir?), seems more appealing for personal use than 50 gallons of good Cab and/or Merlot. BTW I'd love to make wine as good as Charles Shaw someday!!

I intend to plant Chardonnay, Gamay Nior and Pinot Noir for early grapes. Probably will take Bill's advice and forgo Leon Millot. Merlot, Syrah and Sav. Blanc for midseason and Cab for late midseason. Gotta fit Pinot Gris and a Muscat in there somewhere too. References from 'Vines to Wines' by Jim Cox. Sounds crazy when I see it in print, what fun this is! Thanks Steve noobie Oregon

I've had Two Buck Chuck and I'm sure you will have no problem making wine that good in Oregon. (No offense to Charles Shaw intended.)

If you are in a warm area Syrah will go well, instead of LM why not consider Carignane or Ruby Cabernet? Olmo developed RC and it was designed for warm climates. It does not have a hybrid charecter; I wouldn't call it great but it's better than some of the red hybrids I make from NY and PA grapes.

I agree with that white hybrid comment, we have some dynamite whites out here. Seyval makes a great dry white and good sparkler. The options for sweet wines are wide open too. Joe

spud wrote:

Steve,

I think you should heed Tom's advice. Once you start making wine your tolerance for below average wine becomes lower and lower. Eventually you won't even want to drink the wine made from grapes that aren't suited to your exact climate. Grow what grows well in your area and taste some of the wine in your area and make sure you ask if the grapes were grown at the winery. If you grow grapes just to grow them you will surely rip them out when you become more experienced and your standards rise.

Bob

I only have one year behind me making wine and am already more picky than last year. Point taken.

Thanks Steve noobie Oreg>Steve,

And Sonoma County has several radically different microclimates, each especially suitable for certain varietals, to name a few (forgive for any I forget to give honorable mention):

Chardonnay and Pinot Noir from the Carneros AVA region (south of Napa, nearer the cooler SF Bay) and from the western end of the Russian River AVA, including in Green Valley

Zin from Dry Creek, Chalk Hill, Alexander Valley, Rockpile, Lytton Springs, Geyserville

Merlot from Bennett Valley, Sonoma and Dry Creek

Cab from Rockpile, Alexander Valley, some of Chalk Hill

Most any grape grows here, just some taste better than others cuz of the microclimates and soils.

Gene

I second Joe's Two Buck Chuck comment, 'cept maybe when he got lucky with his 2002 Shiraz and a select few bottlings of his 2002 and 2003 Sauv Blanc. California Southern Central Valley grapes aren't known for their finesse, and I doubt he's got many offers for premium grapes at a price compatible with $2/bottle wine. LOLOL

You can coax a pretty good Pinot Noir out of warmer regions that get down to about 50F at night. You might want to make it in two batches. What do the 'experienced' guys think about this (coming from a relatively noobie of 3yrs).....? A smaller first batch harvested at about 19-21 deg Brix to get the brighter acids - remove as many seeds and stems as practical from the must prior to fermentation to minimize the immature tannins, then ferment with a yeast which consumes some of the malic acid and rack off the gross lees into an airlocked secondary fermenter as soon as the foamy part of the fermentation is over. The second, larger batch could be harvested at 23.5-24.5 deg Brix to get the mature flavors, sulfited and cold-soaked for several days at

50F-55F, then fermented with 'traditional' pinot noir yeast). Then try various blends of the two to suit your taste. You might be pleasantly surprised. As always, YMMV, depending on your winemaking savvy.

Have you considered Sauvignon Blanc and/or Viogner? Both taste very good from warmer but not baking hot regions. Won't be the flinty/grassy grapes (New Zealand style) but for the more citrussy/floral style that I personally favor.

Gene

Joe Sallustio wrote:

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My winemaking is not savvy, and am I sure I don't want it to be that sophisticated. Over-engineering has always been an easy trap for me to fall into. I have to constantly remind myself of Occum's Razor and the KISS principle to keep from creating Rube Goldberg oddities in any of my projects.

So, adhering to those guides, I would probably just let the grapes mature and simply make acid and sugar adjustments as needed.

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Me too. I have 5 gallons of Sauvignon Blanc going right now from a friends vineyard down the road. Intend to grow some of that for sure.

Thanks! Steve noobie Oregon