next question: Oak

*I* would make sure that the oak is white oak, and that it hasn't been treated with anything and that it has been dried for some time. Air drying is typical of french barrel construction, IIRC, the american methods use kiln drying, though I recall hearing they are switching over to air drying too.

Once while visiting a winery, the winemaking suggested going to a sawmill and getting some end pieces from some white oak and drying it for some time, either in an oven, or preferably in the open air for a time to get all the sap out. The oven method would also help to toast the oak as well, another thing worth mentioning if you are picking up raw oak. I have yet to try it as I have a barrel and such, but I hope to give it a go soon.

My local homebrew/wineshop sells 1oz French or American oak chips (medium roast) for less than $1 a piece, and you only need a few ounces per batch. So, imho it isn't really breaking the bank on a $100 batch of wine or mead.

The difference between winestore oak and the stuff I burn in my fireplace isn't amazing. Both are oak, I've just never found dirt, bugs, or worms living in the winestore stuff. ;-)

Dave - It does matter. Just any type wood is not what you want to for your wine. Go to the homebrew/winemaking shop (expensive??) and buy some Stavin cubes. Ask the shop about the amount to use. Learn from them.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

The answer is yes and no, sort of. You want to use white oak, not red, red is usually what you buy in lumber yards. Good oak is usually cut down and left to dry for several years also. You want to toast it, (not quite charred). European oak also tastes different than American oak. So if you have an oak tree in tha back yard, have at it. That is part of the cost issue, there are several steps to go through to make it right for winemaking. Regards, Joe

Why?

Again.. Why?

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

email: daveallyn at bwsys dot net please respond in this NG so others can share your wisdom as well!

The toasting isn't really intended to rid the oak of the "green" qualities - that's the purpose of the two or three years' worth of air drying. The primary reason American oak was seen as inferior to European was the drying treatment (long air drying for French, kiln drying in the past for American, the latter being less effective in seasoning the oak) and stave cutting (sawn for American, split for French, also changing wine-ageing behavior). As American coopers have started using techniques more resembling their French counterparts, particularly the air drying, the differences between American and French oak have shrunk, although differences still remain since they are different oak species.

Different amounts of toast, as I understand it, *do* affect the flavors you get, though. As I understand it, different levels of toast brings out different flavor characteristics as the flame changes the chemistry of the inside of the barrel. If I remember right, moderate toasting tends to bring out the vanilla, a heavier toast gets you more coconut and other flavors and of course when you approach charred, you get charcoal.

- Mark W.

Dave

Lets think about where and why oak is part of wine. For hundreds of years the oak barrel was a water tight, strong, storage vessel to safely hold or transport wine, beer, spirits, water etc. It is fairly recently that glass, stainless steel,plastic,epoxy coated cement and the likes came into being. These containers impart none of themselves to the contents unlike oak cooperage. The magic of oak barrels is their ability the evaporate water and alcohol from the wine and concentrate the base flavours. Lately I have noticed and tasted many wines sold as being unoaked. Could it be that wine, does not need, nor require the flavour of the container that held it. I have made unoaked wine from zinfandel, cabernet savignon, merlot and chardonnay grapes which are totally different from the same oaked wines. Generally many people I know seem to prefer a lighter oak on reds and little if none on whites. Could it be that the times are a changing? However for the home amateur oak chips or beans from your local kit wine shop are the way to find YOUR taste level of oak....Zinman

In which direction do you suspect they are changing?

My experience is that although people say (for example) that they don't like a lot of oak in their wines, if I serve them a fine barrel fermented Chardonnay that's spent a year (or more) in new oak they _love_ it!

[Having said that, I must confess to recently acquiring a taste for tank-fermented, New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. The only oak most of those see is the stake the vines were trained on in the vineyard.]

It's all a matter of balance. It's OK for a wine to have appreciable oak IF the fruit stands above the wood. The top chateaus in Bordeaux have their own cooperages on-site to produce new barrels every year for their best wines. I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing.

OTOH, we home winemakers don't necessarily have access to the best quality fruit. If the fruit is just OK, a lighter touch with the wood might be a good idea.

Tom S

I make red wine both ways; some aged in an oak barrel and some aged in glass carboy. I have found that for some varieties, like Cabernet Sauvignon that have a lot of natural tannins, the carboy aged wine taste as if it had some barrel time. I think that a LOT of commercial wines are over oaked but I find that some time in a somewhat spent barrel contributes a lot of mouth feel to the wine. I don't see any need to use oak on white wines. I work part time at a small commercial winery. I begged the winemaker to not oak the Sauvignon Blanc last year because it tasted SOOOO good without oak. He half listened to me and blended a tank with some which spent a few months in somewhat spent barrels. Neither was innoculated with ML. It is one of the most popular wines the winery is selling. A lot of customers are pleased to find a Sauvignon Blanc that does not taste like a Chardonnay. I have not convinced him to try a non barreled Chardonnay but I feel a crisp Chardonnay is more to my liking that the usual buttery, oaky Chardonnay.

It really isn't possible to make one varietal taste like another. I learned this for myself when I barrel fermented 2001 Pinot Grigio, in the same style as I made my 2001 Chardonnay. At NO point did they ever resemble each other very much, although they were both handled in a very similar fashion. The Pinot Grigio tastes and smells like Pinot Grigio; the Chardonnay smells and tastes like Chardonnay.

I have not

As a long time Chardonnay afficionado, I do not agree with your evaluation of the optimum cellaring practice for this varietal.

IMO, Chardonnay and French oak is a marriage made in heaven. The only improvement on that is sur lie aging. It's truly amazing the effect that a year in a new French barrel can have on a good Chardonnay.

Tom S

I guess it just goes to show the variability in tastes and opinions. In the commercial sector, whatever sells is optimal but as amateurs, we can do our own thing. Have you ever tasted a Chardonnay made without ML and oak? It is my understanding that the oaky, buttery Chardonnay is a typically American style. There seems to be a glut of the American style Chardonnay and something new is refreshing to me.

Okay, so here I sit wanting to add a bit of "something" to my homemade fruit wines, and explore some of the ingredients (like oak) hanging on the wall at my wine store. Up until this point I have just looked not tried anything. Any ideas...? A little oak to a grape wine...? Darlene

French Chardonnay makers vary in their use of both oak and ML; in Australia and California there are also Chardonnays that avoid both, although it is certainly not the predominant style. Locally, Sierra Vista makes a very nice, crisp unoaked Chardonnay that is attractively priced - around $12 from the winery, probably discounted to less elsewhere. They describe it on their website here:

I have no connection with the place other than as an occasional customer - if you're ever in the Sierra Foothills of California for some tasting, they have some nice wines and even if they didn't would be worth visiting just for the views.

- Mark W.

It is a mater of taste. I like oak in wine. Then again I have tried some commercial wines that taste like oak was the main ingredient and that is a bit too much for me. Try it. If you are not sure, draw off a gal or two from a 5 gal batch and do a comparison. Your crafting your own wine to your taste after all.

Ray

Yep, sure have. Pretty unexciting stuff.

Ferment it in a new French barrel and let it rest on its lees for the better part of a year and _then_ you've got something! The transformation/marriage is truly a thing of beauty. French oak does more for Chardonnay than it does for any other grape.

The glut you are referring to is mostly so-so Chardonnay that is not very well handled or cellared IMO. The good stuff isn't all that common - or that cheap. They start at ~$20/bottle. Try a bottle of Kistler's Chardonnay to get an idea of the difference. That'll set you back ~$75 or so - _if_ you can find it - but it's money well spent.

BTW, I only mentioned Kistler because it came to mind readily as one of the best examples of fine California Chardonnay. I have no affiliation with the winery; I just admire the artistry of the winemaker.

Tom S

Even Grand Cru Chablis? I could understand it not being your cup of tea, but unexciting ? :-)

Not really. The "American" style was copied from Burgundy where most of Chardonnay is barrel aged and undergoes MLF to produce a very full, butter, oaky wine. Some of the best Chardonnays in the world are made in this style.

There is also an area of Burgundy called Chablis (don't confuse it with USA "Chablis" which is not even close to real Chablis) that tends towards little or no oak and MLF and the soil produces a wine that is minerally, crisp and lets the character of the grape show through. Again, some of the best Chardonnay in the world is made in this style.

There is room for both styles in the world. Each brings something different to the table and each has it's place with different foods.

Agree 100%.

Andy

Try it on a small portion to see if you like it. If so, you can scale it up for the entire batch.

I wouldn't recommend oak for most fruit wines, but blackberry might be an exception. I think French oak would be nice on a blackberry wine.

Tom S

Different people add it during different stages. Some during primary, some during secondary, some during bulk aging. I have in always added it during bulk aging but this year I am going to experiment with adding during secondary.

But if you are adding it with chips or cubes and leave it in for a couple of months and then decide you want more, you may need to add a few more as the ones in there will probably be spent. Go ahead and add them back with a few more.

Ray

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