Juice vs pulp for fruit wines

Hi all,

I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from non-grape fruits:

  1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
*without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e. juice fermented)?

  1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e. macerated)?

  2. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

  1. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on wine type/style?

  2. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of fermentation maceration?

Shame UseNet doesn't do polls :-)

Thanks for your responses - the more the better,

Ben

Reply to
Ben Rotter
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YES

NO

1, definitely.

I have only tried three types of shredded fruits, raspberries (horrid failure), strawberries (ditto) and blueberries (endless successes!)

For the blueberry, which is not a white but is a fruit, I do leave the berries in for months. It is superb. Time for some now! LOL!! Bob<

Reply to
Bob
  1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
*without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e. juice fermented)?

If you're counting frozen juice concentrate then yes. If you're not including frozen juice concentrate, then only 1 (Watermelon).

  1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e. macerated)?

Yes, I almost always ferment on the fruit.

  1. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

I do about the same of both. But if you are strictly talking about just fermenting on juice from fruit or fermenting on juice w/fruit, then I almost always ferment on the fruit.

  1. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on wine type/style?

When you pull the nylon bag (w/the fruit) out of the jug when fermentation is over, and look at how mushy and white (bleached out) it is; I think I get more flavor and color from fermenting with the fruit. The only exception was watermelon and that was because it was so mushy to begin with, I got the juice first and fermented with juice only.

  1. Do you believe you get more *flavor* extraction through use of fermentation maceration?

Yes, I do, but I also think it helps to freeze the fruit before you make wine out of it. I've been very happy with my strawberry, rhubarb, pumpkin, cherry, grapefruit, pepper, oregano, zucchini, blackberry, & plum.

Reply to
Dar V

This may not be the sort of information you're looking for, but my decision to ferment juice or to ferment on the pulp/skin has been driven by my (lack of) equipment. I don't have a press, or any other good way to extract juice from fresh fruit, so I ferment on the pulp.

On the other hand, I was able to buy wine grapes from a local homebrew shop this season and the price included the use of their equipment. Since I could take delivery of the grapes, crush and press them on the premises, and take home the fresh juice, I selected a white and fermented the juice.

I've often wondered, though, about the value of fermenting non-grape fruit on the pulp. In grape wine, I think it's done to extract color and tannin. Is tannin in all fruit skin? I know that some fruit has colored juice, and that means it's not always necessary to extract color from the skin. So Ben, I'm curious about your answers to your own questions (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!).

Erroll

Reply to
Erroll Ozgencil

yes, although it's not much more... a pyment, two cysers, a tea, a kiwi strawberry... ummm... don't remember.

a little shy still (which could be a good children's book, right?) =)

raspberry melomel, peach melomel, plum melomel.

the raspberry ended up pretty bitter, only starting to clear up in taste after about three months, but that's because of those damn seeds. otherwise, it tasted amazing.

i will do as few non-fruit-pulp ferments as possible. the only times i will use fruit juice to the exclusion of pulp is for the cysers (i don't have a cheap source of fresh apples) or possibly another pyment (i'm lazy and don't want to look for quality fresh grapes). this is of course not counting the beer, or potato or coffee wines. i want to make a malt beverage, maybe try cloning spark's or one of the smirnoff's.

the ferments are way better. i don't get violent fermentation with the fruit juice, but i always do with pulp.

yes. most of the time i'll pull out the pulp after a week or two of primary fermentation, and the pulp will have visibly/noticeably lost color and flavor, which means it ended up in the wine. =) i think the smells are better (which is VERY important to me). i have been interested in secondary fermentation with fruit juice, etc though.

Saul

Reply to
Saul_Sabia

Regardles of the fruit, I almost always do a cold soak over a couple of days with pectic enzyme and sulphite. I usually also first freeze the fruit. I then choose to ferment on pulp or not depending on if I think there is any benefit.

Rhubarb, raspberry, gooseberry, red currant I've done this way

Plum, elderberry, black currant, apple, rose hip I've done this way

I find that I am more and more often fermenting on the pulp. By the way, I don't use a straining bag during fermentation, but do it the old fashioned way with a cap and all. great fun by the way.

I usually try to judge from the type of fruit

Yes, that is my argument.

Reply to
Martin Olesen

In message , Ben Rotter writes

No; grand total of 0.

Yes, definitely. 25 gallons so far this year, about 20 last year.

It just suits the style of wine I enjoy (red, lots of body, and plummy), and the fruit I usually have available - in the most part, cultivated and wild plums, damsons and sloes. I would probably try other styles more often (though maybe not make as great a quantity) if I didn't go overboard so heavily on the plums and sloes.

Yes.

cheers, robin

Reply to
Robin Somes

Ben, good questions.

Dozens and dozens.

Dozens and dozens.

I have made far more by (2) than (1), but this has changed over the past three years and in time will probably tip the scales the other way. There are two reasons for this. First, it is easier to find fruit juices, concentrates and nectares now than ever before. Secondly, the steam extractor really is a wonderful invention, allowing heat extraction without imparting a "stewed" taste or aroma that cooking tends to impart. Two other benefits are (a) with steam extraction, I seem to get more juice from the fruit than from pressing after fermenting on the fruit, and (b) it is far, far easier to know exactly how much natural sugar is in the unchaptized must than when fermenting on the fruit.

Each has its place. I have not steam extracted peach yet, for example, because in a test I found that their aroma is simply too fragile, but strawberry's aroma survives very well after being steamed.

My inner bias says yes, but my mind is open. As I said, steam extraction of juice has opened my eyes to new possibilities. My problem is that I have not really experimented that much with it because my wine cellar is quite full. Some day I will comment on what has worked so far, but not today.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page

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Reply to
Jack Keller

Jack Keller wrote "....Secondly, the steam extractor really is a wonderful invention,

Jack - Are you using steam extraction as a home winemaker? If so, what is your technique? Thanks.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Reply to
William Frazier

Bill, yes I am. Take a look at

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Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page

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Reply to
Jack Keller

Hi all,

Thanks to all those who've replied. Though it's far from getting any kind of decent sized census, I think it's probably fair to say that most non-grape winemakers do pulp ferments more than juice-only ferments. Those who do it this way seem to almost all believe that this method results in greater flavour extraction, except that most of those who use this method use this method predominantly. I kind of expected this result to be honest ;-)

BTW, I was *not* counting concentrate or pre-prepared juice as candidates for the non-juice fermentations (because the winemaker then has no control over extraction level) - sorry, should have stated that originally. I imagine that may scew poll results significantly.

Erroll brought up a good po> Is tannin in all fruit skin?

All fruits have *some* (phenols), really. But in terms of whether it's significant for wine - that really depends on the fruit.

:-) My answers would go as follows:

Yes.

Yes.

More of (1), i.e. more juice-only fermentations.

I do prefer juice only, because: (1) It's tidier (less pulp mess, etc) (2) Must technical data (SG, TA, pH) are more stable and easier to evaluate (3) I often like to minimise phenolics in my whites (e.g. the famed seed phenol problem in strawberry/blackberry, reduced herbaceousness in a number of fruits, etc) (4) Research on grape whites shows that white fermentations with lower (to a certain level) suspended solids levels (more juice clarification) improves wine quality dramatically (5) Most controversially, I believe that "decent" juice extraction can extract flavour for many fruits (for the purposes of white wines) just as well as those using maceration.

(Note this question is in terms of *aroma/flavour*, not in terms of colour/tannins/other extract.)

If you do a decent juice extraction - then I say no. But it obviously depends on the fruit and wine style.

Interestingly, I have often found that pulp vs juice seems to result in different flavour profiles of the wines. But this would occur with any different batch to a certain extent, so it's hard to tell without complete control and enough data points to what extent each is affected due to the pulp/juice difference alone. Anyone else done direct comparisons, *with controls*?

Ben

Improved Winemaking

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Reply to
Ben Rotter

Hi Ben

See below:

Not sure what you mean by "...white..." in this context.

Yes. Many

Yes. Many.

Now days I do_far_more liquids only ferments.

Over the years I have come to have a -strong- preference for liquids only ferments. Certainly more work, but_far_better control of the process.

It is my belief that the only reason for "fermentation maceration" is if there is a need to have_alcohol_extraction of desirable components which cannot be obtained by water extraction. I find that with the great majority of fruits, the things thus extracted are_not_desirable. In the cases that I do place solids in the primary, I invariably use a bag to facilitate early removal (usually_very_early removal). I rarely work with "the grape", and if I want tannin in my wines I simply add commercial grape tannin or tea.

I believe that anyone that actually tries all of the various processes will, over time, come to favor the liquids only approach. HTH

Frederick

Reply to
frederick ploegman

Exactly. Usually in my whites I don't *want* much phenolic character anyway, and in the cases where I do, cold maceration imparts enough.

I agree with that, but I'm sure there are many of "the old school" that would disagree. The more fruit winemakers I hear from on this issue (both within and outside RCW), the more this seems to be the way things are going - or at least that's the way it seems for those who are constantly honing their wine quality/styles.

Dare I say this is progress in action? ;-) Ben

Reply to
Ben Rotter

I have assumed that some grapes lent themselves to making red wine, and some to white wine. Stretching this idea a little further, I had been thinking that some (roughly half) non-grape fruit would lend itself to making red wine and other non-grape fruit to white. It seemed natural to me, for example, that blueberries should make a "red" wine. Pineapples, on the other hand, looked like definite "white" wine material. I knew these weren't grapes, though, and I might be extrapolating too much from the experience of traditional wine making.

So Frederick, when you say that, "the things thus extracted are_not_desirable," it seems quite radical and suggests one of three different things to me (please understand that I'm not being sarcastic, this is something I'd like to learn more about and I'm genuinely curious):

1) That the procedure for making red wine is fundamentally flawed.

2) That red wine grapes are so fundamentally different from other fruit that the procedure for making red wine yields relatively poor results with anything other than red wine grapes.

3) You don't like red wine.

Can you clear that up for me?

Ben when you say, "... in my whites I don't *want* much phenolic character ..." I get the impression that you make a fair number of reds in which you *do* want the phenolic character of a pulp/skin fermented wine. Is that correct, or do you think that most non-grape fruit should be made into a white wine?

Erroll

Reply to
Erroll Ozgencil

Hi Erroll

I see the usual confusion here. This is why I told Ben that I wasn't sure what he meant by "...white..." in this context.

An apple is not an orange, and a grape is not a blueberry. When the terms "red/white" are used with grapes, they_imply_certain procedures. With anything_else_they indicate only the color of the finished product. Thus, with non-grape wines we have to differentiate between "pulp" and "liquids only" ferments. IOW - Pears will always make a "white" wine no matter what procedure is used, and blueberries will always make a "red" wine no matter which procedure is used.

Further comments interspersed:

True.

Yes you are. Just because blueberries will produce a red_colored_ end product does not mean that a pulp fermentation has to be used in the processing of that wine.

BTW - non grape ferments are also "traditional". ;o)

Not at all. Here again you associate the word red with the word procedure. My comment was made with reference to non grape fruits.

Red wine grapes are fundamentally different from other fruits in several ways. To get good color requires an alcoholic extraction of the color from the skins (pulp fermentation). Few other things have this requirement. Grapes contain natural tartaric acid. Other fruits do not. So acid management is radically different. Etc... It is just my personal opinion that, in general, alcohol extraction (pulp fermentation) does not add desirable components to most non grape wines.

Well of course I do. :o)

HTMS Frederick

Reply to
frederick ploegman

Frederick (and anyone else who wants to join in for that matter),

Let's delve a bit deeper:

"I find that with the great majority of fruits, the things thus extracted [with alcoholic extraction] are_not_desirable."

1) What specific "things" are undesirable? 2) Do you believe this is true for fruits which are *only capable* of making "white" wines (e.g. pears)? 3) Do you believe this is true for fruits which are *only capable* of making "red" wines (e.g. blackberries)? 4) Do you believe this is true for fruits which are *capable* of making both "white" and "red" wines?

If you dislike my use of "white" and "red" above then substitute "red" for "wines with high phenolic and significant anthocyanin conent" and whites for vice versa. This is how "red" and "white" wines are officially defined, though there is a big grey area.

BTW, if you don't want to define them that way then how do you propose we define them (or is it better to drop the descriptor altogether?)? If the definition is simply based on colour is becomes a bit pointless, and if it's based on the *procedure* used to make the wine (as Frederick indicated earlier) then that means you could technically have a pear wine that was called a "red wine"!

Ben

Reply to
Ben Rotter

This is the way that *grape* wines are defined, and even then "...there is a big grey area..."

A blueberry "defined" as a white ?? A pear "defined" as a red ?? Counterintuitive and much too confusing for someone like me. Since this is a poll, I vote that it is better to drop these "descriptors" (as so defined) altogether when discussing non-grape wines. HTH

Frederick

Reply to
frederick ploegman

technically

For what it's worth, that's the definition I was using. The replies I got made me think that nobody else was using that definition, or realized that I was, or both. In fact, I was close to posting a question to the group about the differences between "red" blueberry wine and "white" blueberry wine.

I was thinking that we should give commercial wine makers their due, and assume that wines made from red wine grapes benefit from skin fermentation and that white wine grapes do not. Cider makers probably know something about their craft as well, so apples and pears are best juice fermented. I wondered if there was a body of experience to draw upon in deciding how to make wine from other fruit (pineapples, blueberries, plums, cherries ...). If not, is there a way of making an educated guess? If we knew what was special about the chemistry of red wine grapes (and it sounds like you and Fred do) then maybe we could use that to decide how to ferment other fruit. Are we talking about the same thing?

Erroll

Reply to
Erroll Ozgencil

Hi Erroll

Go to:

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Read, read, read. Many_hundreds_of recipes there !!

Reply to
frederick ploegman

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