Re: Newbie Wine Making, Help with TA=1.60%

Sep 21, 2003 7 Replies


The grapes pressed about 8 gal. of juice. I really wanted 6 gallons


> but I picked too many grapes, they just looked too good on the vine.
> The juice is 15 Brix and a TA of over 1.60% . I used the standard
> small acid test kit sold in LHBS and had a hard time at the end of the
> titration because the test tube was full.

With a brix of 15, you would want to add quite a bit of sugar BEFORE testing the TA. But getting a 1.60% acidity down to acceptable levels is quite a trick.


Let's ameliorate it with water. So I added 2gal. water to 4 gals.

Seems a bit much! One part water to five parts must is the maximum dilution you can do without seriously affecting the flavour. Furthermore, when adding water, it should be sweetened to at least 20º Brix first. Then recheck your brix and acid.


Now I have 6 gal. liquid in a 7.5 gal bucket.

You need to allow at least 25% headroom, more with a high-foaming yeast such as Montrechet. Put the 6 gallons in a 10 gallon primary, or put 3 gallons in each of two 5-gallon buckets.


Also, I put 8 tsp. of calcium carbonate into each vessel.

I've lost track of your volume. However, CaCO3 is so powdery, that it cannot be measured with any degree of accuracy with a teaspoon. It should be weighed on a gram scale. 2.5 grams per gallon will lower acidity about .1%, but results can vary, so it must be rechecked. And you shouldn't use CaCO3 to effect more than a .3-.4% adjustment, or it can eat up all your tartaric acid, leaving you with apple-lemon juice.


Now my TA is 1.30%. Yes, my sodium hydroxide and color indicator are fresh from my LHBS.

Is it possible that you are not performing the acid test properly? Some instructions are quite confusing. If you've done this many times before, I apologize for the question. But it is a valid question for a newbie.


What should I expect as a TA for white grapes harvested in central PA?

Somewhere between .6 and .8 --- if the grapes are ripe.


I realize now that there are other ways like cold stabilization to
> lower TA but this is where I'm at. I'm adding sugar to the must in
> stages to equal a Brix of 22.

Cold stabilization (alone) won't bring a TA of 1.6 down to acceptable levels, and (if it really is that high) you've got to bring it down before you begin fermentation. I don't think your yeast will like the environment otherwise.


Please check the instructions for your acid test kit again, and run another test before making any more adjustments.


It is better to add sugar in one go, the amount being computed (or taken from a table) based on the starting volume and brix. If you add sugar, and then take another measurement, there will be undissolved sugars which will NOT register, thus giving too low a reading (and forcing you to add too much sugar). If you are fermenting on the skins, the liquid still in the berries will not be sweeted immediately, and the reading will be too high (forcing you to add too little sugar).

Larry,

I thought a bit more about what you said, and I'm pretty convinced you are performing the acid test incorrectly.

You can and should use a larger vessel instead of the test tube (you can use a glass jar).

Also, you can and should dilute the sample with distilled water so it is easier to detect the end-point. Whether or not the water needs to be factored into your TA calculation depends on the test kit and procedure you use. Check the instructions that came with the kit. [If you are drawing off a fixed amount of must, placing that into a test tube, adding color indicator, then dripping acid into the sample from a syringe, and reading the amount of NaOH used from the syringe, you can dilute the sample without changing your calculation.]

liquid.... Now my TA is 1.30%.

At this stage your TA SHOULD be = ((2 gallons of water x 0 % TA) + (4 gallons of water x 1.60% TA)) / 6 gallons of water total = 1.07%. The CaCO3 would have made it even lower.

Since it is not, one of the two readings --- or both --- MUST be incorrect.

You're an expert. 8-) I absolutely was doing this incorrectly. I'm using the ID Carlson TA kit that comes with 1/5 N NaOH. I was using a bottle of .1N that I purchased two weeks ago before my grapes were picked. Yesterday I revisited my LHBS and purchased a new bottle of 1/5 N and .1N NaOH, the .1 will come in handy if I want to fine tune my TA reading. I retested the must(after 4 days of fermentation) and now I am reading .65% to .70 %. I put enough CaCO3 in to bring it down to this level. Fermentation probalby has done the rest. I'm actually in the ball park for a balanced wine, maybe even a little low. I may have been able to keep 1 gal. of water out of the must and keep within the

1/5 barrier for adding water. Otherwise, these grapes are not the best and east coast wine is a real challenge this year with all the wet and cloudy weather we had during the growing season. This is my first attemp at this variety.

I tasted the must and it really doesn't taste too bad. I may have a thin wine but it doesn't seem like that now. Thanks for your input as I was really puling my hair out trying to determine the TA on this must.

liquid.... Now my TA is 1.30%.

Thanks for the input. Check my other post for details. Actually, the problem was using .1N solution instead of .2N. That's why I had to keep on adding such a large volume of NaOH solution.

The greape juice didn't taste bad, it was rather good. Also re-tasted today, besides yeast it isn'r that bad. I'm looking for a decent wine out of this.

Larry Miller wrote

Not at all. I've just made the same mistakes more times than you. :)

You can actually use the .1 (1/10) normal solution with the Carlson kit! Either draw a 7.5 ml sample (instead of 15), and procede as usual --- or draw the usual 15 ml sample, but divide the titration result in half (i.e. if it used 6 ml of .1 Normal NaOH to reach the end-point, it would have used 3 ml of .2 (1/5) normal).

How will the .1 help fine tune the TA reading?

The graduations on my syringe that I use to draw my sample and then use to titrate are large and it's hard to read where the plunger on the inside is. Reading between the lines is an approximation so readings of .65 are guesses that I'm actaully reading somewhere between .6 and .7. With the .1N solution I now double my scale and reading on the line I am only guessing by .25 and not .5. Thus, I feel more accurate in my measurment.

Lum suggested the following technique in another thread, and I believe he also discusses it in his book (See

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Divide your must in half. Use potassium carbonate to reduce ALL the acid (tartaric, malic, and citric). Then recombine the two. You have now gone from 1.3% to .65%, and maintained the proper acid balance. I assume the precipitation and recombination must be done prior to fermentation, Lum?

This would avoid dilution, and the K2CO3 should not result in the chalky taste you get from CaCO3.

Or you could combine methods. Dilute from 1.3 to 1.0%, and use K2CO3 for the remaining reduction.

It is difficult to induce malic in a high acid (low pH) must, so if you reduce the acid somewhat (by dilution or precipitation) first, you may have better success. The pH should be at least 3.1 for whites, and at least 3.4 for reds.

I don't think the alcoholic bite will mask the acidity. Try mixing vinegar with vodka, and you will see what I mean. Additional sugar will mask some acidity (perhaps .05 - .1 %), but it won't make that

1.3 disappear. You can draw off a small sample of unfermented must, and see how much sugar you need to add to get rid of the sourness. Are you going to want to leave that much unfermented sugar in your wine?

Given your described situation, my first preference would be Lum's suggestion, and my second would be dilution AND K2CO3.

You could also replace the syringe with a thinner one (with more visible gradients).

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