Re: one more must analysis question

Oct 06, 2003 4 Replies

Lee, You are not far off from my numbers on Central Valley juice from Regina. I did a little experiment this morning on pH that you might find interesting.



I have a blend of 12 gallons of Cab Sauv juice, 6 of Cab Franc juice and 5 gallons of Cab Sauv grapes, pressed after about 5 days of fermentation on the skins.



The SG is 0.996, it is still 'gassy'.



I checked the pH without removing the CO2, it was 3.65. After a few second boil, it dropped to 3.55. Not a huge change, but significant to me.


3 other blends of different juices did about the same thing, all read a little different but the change was about -0.10 pH units.

Here is the initial and final pH and TA of a white (Riesling)from the Central Valley this year.



Initial Current (3 weeks) pH 3.17 3.10



T.A. 5.3 (corrected to 5.8 preferment), now 7.7.



Other reds did about the same. All went up at least 1 g/l. All taste a little tart and will go through a cold stabilization which should drop out some tartaric, so I'm pretty much not concerned here.



In other words, I'm not sure you have to add any acid, my Riesling TA went up almost 2 g/l. If I added anything, it would be tartaric if it were mine, it can be dropped out with cold stabilization.



Hope that helps. Regards, Joe


The grapes that I can get here on the east coast are usually overripe Central
> Valley California grapes. Invariably, they have low acid levels. But I just
> tested a sauvignon blanc batch that had pH levels in the 3.2-3.3 range (tested
> with 2 different recently calibrated meters) and TA levels in the .50 range. I
> tested the TA's on freshly pressed juice, using a titration method with a color
> indicator. I even verified the titration using the pH meter and waiting for a
> pH of 8.2 as the titration progressed, and the TA of .50 is valid. I guess my
> NaOH standard could be off, but I doubt it.
>
> So this is the question: How can there be that much discrepancy between TA and
> pH? I can't see adding tartaric acid to a must that has a pH of 3.2. >
> What would you do?
>
> Lee
.

That would be significant to me Joe.

Wouldn't you expect the pH to go up after removing carbonic acid?

clyde

There is no direct relation between TA (% acid) and pH (strength of the acid) .

From the pH FAQ:

"pH is related to an acid's strength in wine, while the TA relates to the amount of acid. Although interrelated, they are not the same thing. A solution containing a specific quantity of a relatively weaker acid such as malic acid will have a different (higher) pH than a solution containing the same quantity of a stronger acid such as tartaric.

The pH of a solution is defined as the -log of the hydrogen ion. Given the measurement is logarithmic in nature, a solution with a pH of 3.0 is ten times stronger than a pH of 4.0. The total quantity of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions is constant in a solution, as one increases the other decreases. Acidic solutions contain more hydrogen ions than hydroxyl ions; basic solutions contain more hydroxyl ions than hydrogen ions. A pH of 7 is neutral (neither acid or base) as the concentration of hydrogen ions and hydroxyl ions are equal at that point.

"Normally", if the TA is within the correct range, the pH will be as well. But there are many cases where this is not true.

In your situation (pH 3.2-3.3, TA levels .50), it is likely that you have proportionally less tartaric and higher malic and/or citric acid levels. If you add tartaric to achieve your target acid level, you will bring the pH way down. If you add malic, you will bring the pH down much less. On the other hand, the tartaric component will be reduced during cold stabilization, and the malic during malolactic fermentation. So I'm not sure how you should handle this situation.

This was discussed in (heated) detail in the following thread:

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The consensus that I got from the thread was to adjust the pH to the correct level before fermentation, and don't worry about the TA. And adjust the acid-level to taste post-fermentation.

I'd leave it as is and ferment it. Trust the pH. Ignore the TA. Sounds like the grapes are low in potassium.

Tom S

Clyde, I thought that was what it should do too, but that's why I measured it. I made fresh buffers last night and am going to do it again on a larger sample of wines; I have 8 going now.

It's a potential measurement from the probe to solution; maybe the CO2 gas that forms on the pH electrode confuses it, I don't know.

I'm an electronics guy, not a chemist though. Maybe someone else can chime in that understands this better.

Regards, Joe

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