Re: Question about Racking and Fermentation

That's not correct. Sur lie aging is done on _all_ the lees. Juice clarification is very important when making any white wine, but even more so when conducting sur lie aging. Stirring the lees every few days until ML is complete is also necessary because the lees have a tendency to go reductive and produce H2S if they are allowed to settle while the wine is still actively fermenting.

Tom S

Thanks for the information, Tom... I appreciate it.

I've read that it might not be a good idea to leave the juice on the gross lees but rather rack and do sur lie on the fine lees. I've been reading of various wineries doing this but it's not consistent. I'm worried about impurities in the gross less, which come from the raw grapes, causing problems and spoilage of the must. My conservative side leans towards getting it off the gross lees.

I was thinking of this: do the sugar and MLF to completion, stirring the juice twice a week. After that's complete, rack and get the juice off the gross less, then age on the fine less, stirring every few weeks to once a month. Place in the garage and cold stabilize, then long term age for 4-6 months on the fine lees, stirring only once every month or two. How does this sound?

I have read in older posts in this newsgroup you stating that if the must doesn't take on foul odors within the first month or so, it should be fine for the rest of the duration. Is this true?

Would you recommend just leaving it on the gross less even through cold stabilization? I have a timing issue as our climate only allows me to cold stabilize through February of so. I don't have access to a refrigerator.

The must will be in a 15 gallon demi john.

What do you and everyone else think?

-Paul

If the juice is well settled prior to fermentation, there won't be much of anything in it but dead yeast. That's why it's so important to settle the juice well prior to fermentation; the population of spoilage organisms is _drastically_ reduced, and the juice mostly contains what you _put_ into it.

If the wine is bulk aging on only fine lees, I wouldn't recommend messing with it at all until you're ready for fining and the last racking. Every time you open the container, you risk contact with air and spoilage organisms.

Yes. Once _all_ fermentation activity has ceased, the wine will no longer go reductive. That doesn't mean that you don't have to keep the wine topped up, sulfited and bunged tight though. It could still go bad from air exposure, but at least it will be safe from the H2S stinkies.

Sure, why not? It'd be a good idea to bentonite it before then though and take advantage of the effect of the crystals trapping the bentonite finings on the bottom. That makes subsequent racking easier. Don't forget to use Kieselsohl after the bentonite, and some fining trials with gelatin or isinglass aren't a bad idea either.

Tom S

See the recent post no.s 9-11 in thread "Forgot to Cold Settle - Advice?" for clear definitions of gross/fine lees.

Basically you should be using the lees from the end of alcoholic fermentation and MLF. This is done after MLF. MLF produces its own fine lees that can be left for sur lie ageing.

Tom's right in the above, but stirring does help. If you can stir without opening the fermenter it's a bonus.

Whilst it's technically true that when *ALL* fermentation (including the death phase of yeast) activity ends it should be safe, I'd still be wary. Using lees that's 2 or more months old is fairly safe w.r.t. H2S.

Hi Tom... couple of more questions for clarification:

The juice is coming from a vineyard that caters to winemakers. I'll be getting it the same day it'll be made available, so it should be pretty fresh. They press, treat, and store it in huge outdoor vats. Judging by last year's juice, it'll probably be cloudy but won't contain any large impurities I can detect (bugs, dirt, etc.).

I don't know if this is what you mean by "settled." Perhaps it's settled in the tank at the vineyard and I get the settled juice? Is there an added step I should be doing to settle the wine?

I don't plan on opening the container to stir the lees. Perhaps "stir" is a bad choice of words on my part. I'm going to locate a large lazy Susan, which I'll place the demijohn and spin it. I really don't want to open that container when agitating the yeast back into suspension.

So, keeping that in mind, if I decide to just leave it on the gross lees and not open it (agitate it as described above), I could go through the whole process of sugar fermentation, MLF, then fining and cold stabilization without ever racking?! That's pretty amazing. I never thought that would be recommended.

Forgot about the Bentonite... yes, I had great success doing this last year. I added Bentonite and placed it in the garage where it stayed between 28f and about 40f for a few months. Threw lots of bitartrate crystals on top of the Bentonite and it became so clear I never used Isinglass.

Should I rack off the Bentonite then fine with Isinglass, then rack again? Or, can I do a Bentonite fining followed by an Isinglass fining without racking?

Also, is it safe to re-stir the juice with all the settled Bentonite when adding the Isinglass. I know one attracts positively charged particles and the other negatively charged; why not add them both at the same time?

Smelling the Isinglass actually made me nervous that I'd taint the wine. Is that stuff supposed to stink that bad? I know it's ground-up fish bladder, but I can't imagine adding that stuff to wine. I hope that stink doesn't settle into the wine's flavor.

-Paul

Hi Ben... thanks for the reply.

Your articles on Malolactic Fermentation, Sulphur Dioxide, and Sur Lie and Batonnage on your Website have been very helpful. You gave me the idea to spin the juice rather than stir it; thank you for that.

(BTW: Where did you get that "food turntable" in the picture? I'm having trouble locating one.)

Yeah, leaving it on the lees for a long duration makes me nervous, which is why I've been considering pulling the juice off the lees when fermentation is complete. But, I do want a more complex outcome, oaky and buttery, with a soft mouthfeel, so I'm leaning towards chancing it and leaving it on the lees. It's a hard decision, never having done this before. I don't want a disaster!

I plan on testing everything I can and paying very close attention to the entire process. The last thing I want is to end up with $300 of spoiled juice! I just need to learn all the subtle things necessary to catch problems immediately, which is why I'm talking with all of you.

I'm going to be like a Jewish mother with this must! All the standard tests are planned, including baseline tests on sugar, PH, acid levels, total and free SO2, and paper chromatography (to give me practice doing it) when the must arrives.

In your opinion, what are the most important factors to pay attention to and what are the most common pitfalls?

-Paul

Well, you _could_ let it sit refrigerated for a couple of days to see if it's really well settled.

Works for me, but I do it in barrel - not glass - so it does get some micro-oxygenation, as well as aa shot whenever I taste and top and/or stir.

I get all the finings in at once, within a couple of hours. I do trials first.

I do, pretty much.

LOL! Yeah, it's pretty awful, isn't it? Gelatin is pretty smelly too. They both work *wonders* though!

I know it's

It doesn't. Trust me. It's truly miraculous.

Tom S

I bought mine in the kitchen section of a large department store. I've seen that Yum Cha restaurants seem to use them a bit so if you get stuck maybe you could go down that route.

The other thing I'd add to doing external stirring is that the environment can get quite reductive in there. You *do* need to open the up the vessel and have some oxygen exposure. (I was even bubbling air through my last batch to bring it back towards a more oxidative state.)

I would say taste the wine! That way you know where it's at. From that you can make decisions about oxygen exposure and stirring frequency. Pitfalls are probably using unsuitable lees (not your case I am sure, given this thread), wine's without enough oxygen exposure developing reductive tones, stirring that is not frequent enough, and a lack of sensible SO2 use.

HTH, Ben

I just located a good-sized wooden one on eBay... I think I'll place a bid.

This is a good point... I wasn't sure how often it would need to breath. I will be opening the vessel to take samples and perform tests, so it'll have some oxygen exposure.

This brings up another question, which leads into how often the vessel is opened: How often should tests be performed?

For example, should weekly tests be performed during the sugar and ML fermentation stage? I know when ML is underway a chromatography test is needed.

What testing regimen do you (and others) follow? Also, how do you know when the must needs more oxygen?

I need to learn to trust my senses... I have a young tongue for young wine, meaning, I haven't tasted many wines in the process of maturing, so I'm not experienced at knowing exactly how a young wine (must) should taste in a healthy state. But, I would assume, if there's a problem, it would be apparent in the form of an off smell or strange flavor that's unpleasant.

How often do you taste your wine during the fermentation and aging process?

Thanks again,

-Paul